Havannah opening

I'm sure this has been addressed before, but here goes....

Has anybody codified first moves with respect to advantageous or even? The latter would help to select a good opening with an even game whether the opponent swaps or not. This information would be really interesting and informative if someone has done this kind of study and would like to share.

Thanks!

I haven't seen it done. I posted a poll about deciding whether to swap last year, but I didn't get many responses: http://littlegolem.net/jsp/forum/topic2.jsp?forum=50&topic=544

There really isn't much strategic discussion for many games. The hex players seem a little more active, but there's almost nothing for this game or for Slither (which is only relevant because I like it, and want to learn more).

Also it is hard to talk about an unknown area. And opening in Havannah is quite unexplored. See for example fritzd: He likes to play 1. i3 in Havannah-8 which seems strange. On the other hand I managed in game 1628890 to win against fritzd with 1. o5 which seems strange too. Also it is not clear whether or not an opening should focus on speed or on safety, as is true for the whole game.

For what it's worth, http://havannah.ewalds.ca/static/thesis.pdf#section.5.2 shows the outcome on tiny boards. It's always good to swap on size 4, though it's pretty even in the center. For the larger sizes you can use castro and as much cpu power as you'd like to generate a fairly strong opening. Just change the parameters to let it run for several hours straight on each opening and it'll estimate the likelihood of winning for you.

Why do you find 1.i3 strange? I've always thought of it as somewhat standard... Of course, I may be biased, as it is one the first size-8 openings I've seen when I came here (indeed from fritzd).

I'm also an i.3 fan on size 8. I play it more often than not. But I think I also got it from fritzd.

For my taste i3 it is to low to not get swapped. Normally I swap it, in a recent game I try to fight it.

Ah, I see. As for me, I don't swap it, but I saw almost everyone swaps it against fritzd (I imagine many would swap nearly anything against fritzd, though). Perhaps it is quite a balanced move.

What moves what you always swap. What moves would you never swap? I would like a general idea. I am clueless on the subject so I almost always swap.

Maybe the moves in the center are less good because your chain has to be very long to fit in there?

I'm still undecided, but I think I'd not swap anything one lines 1 or 2 on size 8. H3,4,5 I'd definitely swap. Further towards the center might be too slow.

I'm a fan of i3, but I find it easier to play with than against, suggesting that you should swap it.

Moves in the vicinity of K/L 3/4/5, I'd not know how to handle.

I have actually a plan to make some opening statistics for size 8 board, and thought of comparing 2008/2009 games with the most recent. However after looking over ca 50 games from late 2008 I see no swaps at all! So the question is: Was there no swap option on size 8 board in the beginning? And if yes, when did the swap option got implemented on Littlegolem?

Yes you are right, it was discussed in January 2009 and Christian was then opposed to it:

http://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/forum/topic2.jsp?forum=50&topic=340

See also this discussion from March 2009: http://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/forum/topic2.jsp?forum=50&topic=362

Mucio gracias Carroll! If I understand it correctly swap got implemented here on 8 size board 1. March 2009. I am planning to make a 5, 8 and 10 size study on 1. move and which moves are swapped by top players. There is very much interesting stuff. Think for example of following: On 5 size (with swap option) both, the maybe the two strongest 5 size players – Wanderer and Peter Koning play relatively often in the middle with 1.e5! and on size 10 (without swap option) players like fritzd and eobllor play also in the middle with 1.j10!!?? This is completely counter intuitive as for instance in Go and Hex the centripetal moves get weaker and weaker as the board size increases. So in Go you can play in the middle on 9x9 board whereas on 19x19 that would have been a very weak move.

I am not a specialist, but I guess that this is because of the "spider" strategy: against good players, trying to do an early fork along a border does not work. So you end up turning around the board and going toward the center where the influence of the central pawn becomes an advantage. In Go, the influence you get near corners allows you to get live chains at low cost from which you can then increase your territory and influence ; whereas you will often get a chain without territory in the center.I am interested by the moves you should not swap in Havannah which I find difficult to get a good grasp on.

"So in Go you can play in the middle on 9x9 board whereas on 19x19 that would have been a very weak move." This isn't accurate. Tengen, the middle point, is a decent move on a 19x19 board. Probably not as good as the corner moves, but hardly weak. Tengen continues to be played by professionals, although infrequently. That puts a lower bound on how bad it can be.

Well yeah Hyperpape, but this vulgar Tengen play is all due to this modern Go professionals that do not understand the nature of game properly. They lack completely the class and understanding of classical players like for instance Mejin Dosaku (1645-1702), Honinbō Shūsaku (1829-1862) and Honinbo Shuwa (1820-1873) who even played outside the star points (4-4 points), closer to the edges! This modern influence (center) oriented approach is just crap, whenever we talk hex, Havannah or Go :P