Etiquette question regarding bots

Should I limit the number of monthly tournaments I enter?

At first I entered all of them in order to get enough games to be able to comment. (For those who are curious, you appear to need 10 games AND 10 days since registration.)

Are people excited when they see that I am entered, and they'll get another chance to challenge me, or does it fill them with dread? (Note to self, I see that the second qualifier is taking a long time to fill......)

Of course, if people really want to play the shark, I am also posting in the waiting room.

If I compete in all of them, it will result in smaller second rounds, but only very strong players will be there...

Thoughts?

It is a good question. I think it is a fun challenge to play it, but it is a bit much that 2 out of 5 players are bots. Maybe in every other one would be preferable for me personally.

RoRoRo had a discussion about entering monthly cups some time ago. One item was that 'he' would enter only as the first player so those humans to whom it made a difference could make an informed decision whether to play against a bot or not (in the first round, that is. Those humans making it to the second round don't get to choose.)

Entering only as player number 1 is a possible feature for RoRoRo, if it's not enabled and you want it to be, just shout.

These sound like good suggestions. Since, for the foreseeable future, I will be entering by hand, I will only enter the shark when:

1. There are not humans signed up, and
2. I did not sign up for the immediately prior tournament.

And we can continue this conversation if anyone else has an opinion to voice....

Pæease sign it up for the ampionship :) i think this is important to really determine its strength.

Please DON'T sign up for the championship. I think in a game like this, a bot is going to be very strong, and it should not be that hard to make a bot that will beat all humans. Therefore, I think that this is one of those games where bots should NOT play in the championship.

I don't mind the monthly cups (although others might), but you could have him set up user tournaments also, for people who want to play against it. I don't think there is any limit to the number of user tournaments you can set up.

I agree, it shouldn't be signed up for the championship. Not under any circumstances. Though I disagree about its strength, if the game is not completely solved, the bot won't be very strong against top human competition (as demonstrated by Dryad, you can always beat it as player one, once you won one game, because it always does the same moves).

I think I agree with Marius Halsor and diego44, and that the default should be that it is not allowed to sign up. However, I agree with Christian K that it would be interesting to see how it would perform.

It would be interesting to see how the people in the top league feel about it. I note that diego44 is no longer competing, but that Marius Halsor has been in the top league regularly, as looks likely to do so again next time, so his objection is particularly relevant.

It was signed up for the championship, but I have just de-registered it, though I will re-register him before the start of the next cycle, if circumstances warrant.

How is this handled in other games?

Looking at EinStein, I see that it has been won five times by bots (twice by RoRoRo the Bot, once each by hanfried_c and fraggle_c, and that naïve_child_c won this cycle with a perfect score).

Looking at a more serious game, chess, I don't see any bots in the top 3 leagues. Except possibly Quantum Computer. On the other hand, I don't see any bots in the top 100. The same is true of Shogi.

However, Valkyria9 bot has won the 9x9 Go championship 4 times, including 3 perfect scores.

I certainly feel that if the shark should ever win with a perfect score, it would never compete again.

Here is a possible compromise that might meet everyone's needs:

I offer to play a game (rated or not at your option) against each person in the top league (either this cycle or next -- or after having passed some test such as having done the same at the second level or having achieved a rating of 2100 or somesuch). Assuming that people wouldn't have trouble taking the game as seriously as if it were a "real" tournament game, it would give us a good estimate of its strength.

I think it would be good if there were an official policy, listed on the FAQ. However, even if there were, I wouldn't want to enter the shark if it weren't desired.

bill

Is there any reaction to my compromise?

Does anyone, other than diego44, Marius Halsor, and Christian K have an opinion about bots in tournaments?

I agree on not having Jaws participate in championships, MC's are on though. I'd also be willing to play against him as a "shadow" participant in the championships.

On = ok

I'm playing a few games against the Shark at the moment, and I remember playing against an early version a long time afo (when it had to play all four corner moves instead of three).

I say let the Shark play in the Championship. I stopped playing a while ago because there wasn't enough of a challenge anymore -- just a few strong opponents. If the Shark participates in the championship I might play once more as well, if it doesn't then I definitely won't.

I think the Shark would definitely be a favorite to end up first, but who cares really. If I get red against it I'm not that worried about losing to be honest. With blue it's very difficult to beat, but not impossible. I enjoy playing against it in any case.

Aha, flipster. After two years of absence you return all of a sudden, claiming that your retirement was due to lack of serious challenge (!). Now you announce you would participate in the championship, but if and only if our controversial bot The_Shark_c participated as well.. no matter what regarding the Dots and Boxes community at lg comprising the world's best players.

Well, you are an immortal legend and I admit I learned the most by studying your games. I'd say, if there is a chance that you play in a championship again, grasp this opportunity and let the Shark register. However, maybe you should pay a bit attention, since there's only a small gap between fame and conceit. :)

By the way, I'm sorry to refuse your invitation, but I really haven't got the time to play a serious match at the moment.

Let me explain, sghsal. When I retired the challenge was mostly gone because the good players were mostly gone (wccanard, scot, dirtsa). It was hard to stay motivated enough to play well because the level of play was decreasing and the game was not going anywhere. Did you honestly like not losing a single game for a year? Seems boring to me.

Something has to be done for the first league to become more interesting. I'd rather have you and other good human players in there than the Shark, but alas. I don't see what's so bad about losing to a bot.

I haven't played here in a while, but my humble suggestion would be to let the Shark play in the Championship until it becomes clear that it's just going to keep on winning. Then it should be retired.

William: Your compromise sounds fine.

@flipster: Thanks for your explanation. I understand your point and apologize. :)

@Shark: I fully agree with flipster then, I'd say let it play.

Okay. In terms of the monthly tournaments, I think I'll slow it down to only entering one qualifier per month (probably the first one, but not if there are humans already in it). I will stop entering altogether if it wins 5 months in a row or 3 months with a perfect score.

In terms of the Championship, it looks like there are strong opinions on both sides, and no clear majority preference.

So, unless the subsequent voting goes strongly against my entering, I will enter the next cycle, and stay in until I win 3 tournaments in a row or win 1 with a perfect score.

I think I will send a note to all the players in the top 2 leagues, letting them know about this thread.

A quick clarification. In terms of the retiring from the Championship, I was only counting tournaments where I was in the top league.

I don't think computers belong in general competitions in games where computers are demonstrably better than the best humans. Until that has been concluded by most strong players, I think it's fine.

I agree that the computer could keep playing in the Championship unless it wins all the games with little effort. And even it is the case, a game that a computer could win easily needs to be 'upgraded' in a certain way itself (e.g. though dominating go 9*9 sometimes, computers are far from good players in go 19*19), instead of blaming the computer too much.

I like the idea of the robot being at the level where you (humans) don't deserve to win the crown unless you can beat it. A gatekeeper, ensuring that those who are not worthy shall not pass, but those who are, do.

It must therefore by definition be beatable by the worthiest humans, as long as they keep their wits about them. (But not if they don't.)

Finishing 4th in the championship is about right, IMHO. I'm perfectly happy with RoRoRo's behaviour here, for example: http://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/tournament/tournament.jsp?trnid=dvonn.ch.22.1.1