new game: Tumbleweed

Tumbleweed is a new abstract strategy game designed by Polish game designer Mike Zapawa.

This game is definitely going to be a modern classic - extremely simple, yet vastly deep.

The rules can be found here:

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/318702/tumbleweed

It has recently become available on several platforms:

Tabletop Simulator - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2213806633

Mindsports - https://mindsports.nl/index.php/dagaz/1093-tumbleweed

IGGamecenter - http://www.iggamecenter.com/info/en/tumbleweed.html

or the general game playing system, Ludii - https://ludii.games/download.php

The first annual correspondence Tumbleweed tournament is about halfway over.

Currently I am winning :D

We hope to see Tumbleweed eventually on LittleGolem some day.

@spartacus5 it looks interesting but the Description in the link you provided is confusing to say the least.

Is there somewhere a more clear set of rules?

Try http://www.iggamecenter.com/info/en/tumbleweed.html, after reading three times, I think I got it.

Hi, designer of Tumbleweed here. First of all, I'm glad to see the game discussed here! But, more to the point, Tumbleweed is an extremely simple game in terms of mechanics. Unfortunately, I'm a pretty bad explainer! I agree with Carroll that the ruleset given at igGC is simpler. If anyone has ideas for further improvement, clarifications, feel free to hit me up!

Also this FAQ might hopefully be useful: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2511611/tumbleweed-rules-faq

ypercube, nice to see you here on this thread! I can also answer any questions

Thnx @Zapala and @Carroll.

The FAQ had cleared some of my confusion but the iggamecenter is much better!

Now, we need some practice!

The mechanism is not complicated, it's just surprisingly difficult to explain with words. Actually playing the game makes it click.

Definitely a game that would be welcome here and benefit from tournament play, but it's lengthy for a modern abstract, usually 100-150 moves on the smaller board (not a bad thing, just unusual nowadays).

Did it ever get tested on hex6?

There are also some videos on Alek Erickson's channel, showing the game being played in Ludii. It might give you some idea about the mechanics, tactics and strategies:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVFQL139Odc

@metzgerism, I know there has been some casual play on hex7. But I firmly believe hex8 to be the least size where some strategic nuances really get to shine through.

I take advantage of the annoucement of this promising new game to draw attention to the existence of not very edand however very good games created some years ago. I especially think of Ayu, which is an exceptionally deep and original game , with unique tactics and unfortunately very few players. Ayu may however be played at the excellent mindsports site.

Very cool-looking mechanic.  It has a laser-beam vibe, even if they're not present.

Hi Metzgerism, I think size 7 is still playable, size 6 is getting a little small, and size 5 feels way too small.

This game seems like it the perfect addition to be added to LG. It’s like a mix Amazon’s and Go if that makes sense. Mechanics could not be simpler.

Any feel free to message me if you want to try and play on other sources.

Also in regards to the rules, they are incredibly simple once you play a sample game.  The ruleset just doesn't seem intuitive right off the bat.

Tumbleweed has the potential to be deeper than hex, amazons, or chess. (can't comment on go as i don't play go)

When it comes to Tumbleweed's depth, here are the facts:

• In terms of combinatorial complexity, size 8 Tumbleweed can be assumed to be above 10^100 and size 11 to be above 10^250. For comparison, 11x11 Hex is 10^98, Chess is 10^123, Amazons are 10^212 and 19x19 Go is 10^360. This lower bounds arevery conservative, and we can't know for sure until stronger players emerge. The real question is effective complexity, which stems from effective game length: how many moves does it take for the result to become obvious? Stronger players will avoid blunders, but they will have better foresight, so this could go either way.
  
• In terms of strategy and tactics, there are some easily conveyable principles that can be taught to, or even observed by, beginners. Many of them sound very natural, almost like a story. At the same time, there is much tension between those principles, and applying them often isn't easy: for instance, in the opening there is a very clear dilemma between spreading out as wide as possible and keeping your pieces secure. While the player base is still fairly small (24 players on players on igGC, plus no more than 10 others on MindSports, Ludii and TTS), a fairly robust skill ladder is quickly being established.
  

So, to sum it up, Tumbleweed has high combinatorial complexity, learnable strategic basics and a lot to reveal later on. This is probably enough to establish strategic depth, so I agree with @Clark94*. That being said, I don't feel comfortable comparing it to games it has little to do with (like hex or chess), and I think it's definitely more "shallow" than Go.

\_\_\___

\* Of course, this assumes that there aren't some pathological game-breaking strategies! There don't seem to be any so far, but you never know... That being said, any potential flaws could probably be fixed with simply changing the opening protocol accordingly.

Spartacu5. I see that you posted the mindsports link, can you use that link to play against others.

@Clark94, MindSports allows online play through it's Player's Section: https://mindsports.nl/index.php/players-section

It's well suited for correspondence games.

There are some notable changes compared to the igGC version:

• The board is rotated 60 degrees
  
• The colors are blue&red instead of red&white
  
• The pie is reversed: you set up the second mover, then the first mover
  
• There is no pass button and no automatic influence scoring: the players are trusted to count the score by themselves and resign accordingly
  

Overall the MindSports system (both the page at large and this specific implementation) isn't awfully convenient and I treat Tumbleweed being there as a badge of honor more than anything else, but there are some competent players who use it.

I add that we find at mindsports many very good abstract games which cannot be played elsewhere. They are carefully selected by Christian Freeling; and of course his own ceations may be played at the site.

The next Tumbleweed tournament will begin in March on Iggamecenter. I really hope to see some players from here joining!

Alek recently made an excellent video explaining the rules in under three minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjA_g3nwYW4

I would definitely love to see Tumbleweed here. It has my vote for best Combinatorial game of 2020, which does not quite do it justice. I'm playing on MindSports right now (wish it had a better mobile interface and better notifications).

The second open Tumbleweed tournament is underway at iggamecenter!

22 participants representing 8 countries... amazing turnout!

That includes a few people I see here on LG -

coldsalmon, Zapala, myself (spartacu5), Clark94, Metzgerism, Liberte, and others.

Tonight on IGGC I will be playing my 3rd round Tumbleweed tournament match against "atari", who is one of the top-ranked players and a dan-level Go player.

I'm scared!

Just wanted to add my voice to support the implementation of Tumbleweed on LG.

Tumbleweed really gives me a feeling that it's a very deep game. It might be the most interesting game I've discovered since I discovered go more than a decade ago. I would be delighted to play it at a turn-based pace with the crazy LB brains.

 Best,

I have to agree with Tybalt, Tumbleweed is the most deserving game to be implemented here, in my opinion.

I would also like to see it implemented here... it's been difficult for me to play live on iggc (work, family, etc), but async play has been relatively easy.

Here is an instructional video about Life in Tumbleweed. Life is very different than in Go because groups can get eaten away at the edges. However, it is similar in the sense that collectives of stones help each other live - as in strength in numbers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4zf-ccQqBI

Tumbleweed will be played in this year's Mind Sports Olympiad! This tournament is open to anyone, so it's a good chance to get into the game while we wait for it to hopefully get implemented here one day. Here is the registration.

we made a puzzle book!

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/229062/local-tactics-tumbleweed

Would be amazing to have it here!!!

The abstract game of the year for me.

Just voicing my support as well for Tumbleweed on Little Golem. I believe it's the best abstract to come out in a long time, and I think its popularity could grow if it were added here! :)

Tumbleweed is currently in Alpha at boardgamearena. If you are also a user of that website, please let me know your handle and I can invite you to the group for testing the implementation. Thanks!

Tumbleweed has now reached beta.

A new essay "Opening Theory in Tumbleweed" is not yet released but the first draft is finished. Coming soon!

the 51-page book "Opening Theory in Tumbleweed" is finished and available here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/233805/opening-theory-tumbleweed

That's a very nice book, thank you for sharing!

Tumbleweed needs a home on Littlegolem

+1 !!!!

I agree, I hope this year we can see Tumbleweed on Little Golem!

The first BGA tumbleweed tournament starts tomorrow, please register!

https://boardgamearena.com/tournament?id=133649

It says that I need 100 ELO to get in. Is there a way around that by invitation? Or had I better start playing now.....

William Fraser: I'm not sure if there is a way to get around that (I tried to invite you, but I'm not sure if you were allowed to join). In any case, I'm happy to play some games against you before the tournament starts so you can reach 100 elo!

Please Tumbleweed on LG <3

I just received my copy of Abstract Games magazine in the mail. There is a short article about Little Golem. Richard says in the article that Tumbleweed is "slated to be next".

That would be fantastic!

Awesome !!!!

The Mindsports Olympiad Training tournament is happening tomorrow at 7:00pm CEST on BGA. If you happen to be below BGA’s 100 Elo requirement but would like to join anyways, let me know your BGA username so I can invite you.

https://boardgamearena.com/tournament?id=141264

It will be on LG. Until now you can see it in https://littlegolem.net/app

• click in menu on Games and Variants
  
• you can use filter in top right corner for local games
  
• click on Tumbleweed size 6
  
• click on Local game
  

Amazing, Richard! It looks nice too

Hi, there is a problem with the implementation as far as I can tell.
The setup rule is implemented incorrectly.
I will DM you with the details

I think the implementation is correct - even if it is not the same as the original. Original rules: first player places two stones (red and then white). The second player plays as the red player or does a 'swap' and chooses the white stones. So the first move is made by the opponent with the red stone. In any case, the player with the red stone starts the game.

The implementation on LG is the same, but the players' colours don't change - but the stones are swapped. So the player either swipes his turn or makes a swap (the stones on the board are swapped) and the opponent makes the first move.

That swapping of stones on the board allows you to mark who is white and black in the game, and that doesn't change in any game implemented on LG. Similarly, swap is implemented in other games on LG (hex, havannah).

Cannot wait :D