Skip to content
Little GolemMake your next move.

The Age of Spriritual Machines

Public forum discussion.

General

#1 · Andres Villasante

7 Feb 2004

The strategy of the evolution of mind is toward an increasingly looser relationship to the axioms of organic existence. But this relative freedom has evolved only because it serves all the better the purposes of the organism in the game of survival. The effective general strategy for survival lies in the ability to transcend or override any particular algorithm. This freedom has its dangers. There is a price to pay, not only in the overhead of complexity, but in the very laxness which is its essence. With our relatively free will, and enormous capabilities for transforming the environment, we humans are free to play havoc with the natural support for our very existence. From an evolutionary point of view, this freedom to play God exists only for the purpose of serving the mandate of life on a higher level than we may already recognize. To transcend a truth is to find a larger truth, to open to a greater, more objective reality that is binding on a higher level. We could say that the evolutionary purpose of subjective consciousness is to liberate the subject from the object. This means creating a subject that is utterly free from the dictates of the projected system of cognitive behaviors that is usually taken to be the self. The core of this self-- whether considered as the subject's experience or his cognitive behavior-- is belief or thought mistaken as reality. Before subjective consciousness, there is only the world, which is the unconscious projection of such thought and belief. In subjective consciousness, there is both world and self at odds. After subjective consciousness, there is no more distinction between world and self. The evolution of complex adaptive systems proceeds through sensitivity to awareness to self-consciousness. If the organism has transcended its programs once in creating awareness, twice in creating subjective consciousness, perhaps a third movement toward objectivity lies in abandoning the subject/object duality of subjective consciousness. Having played its role, perhaps the separate self with its imagined freedoms will ultimately be discarded as an expedient that has outlived its usefulness in the evolutionary quest for objectivity.Of course, language, reflexive consciousness and (non-material) culture is possible without a technological orientation. Again, the cetaceans may be a case in point, with their elaborate communication skills. Yet, if signals are to be sent across space, some means of directing electromagnetic energy seems to be implied. If a species communicated using electromagnetic signals (rather than sound), perhaps some natural means of amplification could be evolve (without externally fabricated amplification devices).By definition, the subject stands always on the opposite side, of the arrow (or lens) of mind, from objects. The subject is not any object of consciousness, but is consciousness itself. Not itself a thing, it is a point of view, never what is seen from that point of view. We could think it is a person or agent pointing, but this begins to make the subject an object of thought, even a body, which it is not. Since awareness can always point to any pointer, the subject is always interior to what can be pointed to.

#2 · Dvd Avins

10 Feb 2004

If you have not yet read Vernor Vinge's essay on what he (and now many others) call the Singularity, I think you will find it very interesting. It can be found in several places by googling singularity and vinge.

#3 · Bill LeBoeuf

10 Feb 2004

Josef, an outstanding essay...is this reprinted from elsewhere?

Dvd, thanks for the reference to Vinge. Have you read Ray Kurzweil?

Bill

#4 · Dvd Avins

10 Feb 2004

I own Spiritual Machines, but I had only read a little bit whne I packe up to move and haven't unpacked that box yet. There's stuff I want to read, but from what I've read so far, I found most of it was things I'd already absorbed from friends who'd already read him, from my own thinking, and from other sources. That's unfortunate, because it means it's harder for me to keep my momentum going while reading, but I do want to get through it.

#5 · Andres Villasante

30 Mar 2004

For example, consider the cost, time, and effect of administering all possible medical tests to a patient complaining of a sore throat. • Justify the knowledge of the program. For example, if the program claims that the hypothesis "the patient has a tetanus infection" is true, the user could ask for an explanation. The program might justify this conclusion on the basis of a rule that says that if the patient has a blood test that is positive for tetanus, then the patient has tetanus. Now the user could ask the program to justify this rule. The program could respond by stating that a blood test positive for a disease is proof of the disease. In this case, the program is actually quoting a meta-rule, which is knowledge about rules (the prefix meta means "above" or "beyond"). Some programs such as Meta-DENDRAL, have been explicitly created to infer new rules. A hypothesis is justified by knowledge, and the knowledge is justified by a warrant that it is correct. A warrant is essentially a meta-explanation that explains the expert system’’s explanation of its reasoning. Knowledge can easily grow incrementally in a rule-based system. That is, the knowledge base can grow little by little as rules are added so that the performance and correctness of the system can be continually checked. If the rules are properly designed, the interactions between rules will be minimized or eliminated to protect against unforeseen effects. The incremental growth of knowledge facilitates rapid prototyping so that the knowledge engineer can quickly show the expert a working prototype of the expert system. This is an important feature because it maintains both the expert’’s and management’’s interest in the project. Rapid prototyping also quickly exposes any gaps, inconsistencies, or errors in the expert’’s knowledge or the system so that corrections can be made immediately.

Does the age of spiritual machines will be damage by the past centuries of human historical errors? or this future virus are related to a Psychological electrical impulses between the unconsious and colective consious of humanity?

#6 · Vaughan

10 Apr 2004

First-"Consider a living cell. The individual enzymes, lipds, and DNA molecules that go to make up a cell are comparatively simple things. They obey well-understood laws of physics and chemistry. There is no way to point any of them and say, "This is alive". And yet when all those molecules are brought together in an exquisitely pattern, they are life." Second-Which is exactly what Artificial Life Researchers tell us: that life is a process - a behavior that is not bound to a specific material manifestation. What counts about life is not the stuff it is made of, but what it does. The important spiritual point here is: ‘The most important thing to remember about a-life is that the part that is artificial is not the life, but the materials.’" It is when we look at the universe, when we listen to the stars, when we look for God and when we attempt to find our place in the scheme of things that machines are unavoidable.

Alcx

#7 · Andres Villasante

9 Aug 2004

Cognitive scientists also repudiate this law in their work. The creature is henceforth greater than the creator, for man has surpassed inanimate nature, whose creation he is. Their dream is to build a computer that will shame us, that will so surpass us intellectually as we do the apes. The Law of Priority in Creation, however, repudiates their programme. For the computers they build, the programs they write all testify of a creative genius in man which surpasses the objects it creates. For any computer program that is supposed to rival the human intellect, I merely point to the human author who conceived the program. According to the Law of Priority in Creation the cognitive scientist's programme is self-refuting. To the western esotericists, the Tree of Life functioned much like the Kundalini diagrams of the Hindu mystics. Some medieval Kabbalists used the concepts in the Sepher Yetsirah to create an artificial form of life, as in the Golem legends of Prague and Warsaw. This light, the essence of God, was trapped in human bodies as separate sparks of light, our souls. The goal of their knowledge was the path of return, or the ability of the individual sparks to return to the original Light through the process of redemption. As God is supposed to have made man in his image and likeness, then man was thought to contain, in microcosm, the entire Tree of Life. By mapping the internal power centers, and then projecting outward and aligning them with the forces of nature, the magician sought to re-enact the process of creation. And so become, like God, a co-creator of the universe. By comparing these to the structure and processes of DNA, we can assemble a complex of photo-linguistic meanings that allow us to fulfil the ultimate goal of man's spiritual yearnings, that of reading the divine.

#8 · Andres Villasante

29 Jun 2005

.X;

.XX'

.':X'

.:XX' ...

.:XX'.X:':

.':XXXX".:'

.':XMMXX ."

:X. .:.XMMX".:"

X.".-. .:XXMMXX:"

X:":":X .':XMMMMX" .":

X: : ::. .. .:.MMMMM".-".:"

X: :: :.": .-"/ .. .:XXMMMM":" .:"

X:I I I 'I ."XX"..-X:' .XXIMXX".X' ."

"X I I I I": .".XX".XXX" .:XX"MXX"XX'."

X: I I I I:.". . " ".XX"' :XX".MX"XXX.".--.

X:I I I X I I . . .XX" :XX" .MX:XXXXX"'..:

"XXX X XX I I."I.. :. .X" ..:X" .XXXXXXXX:".::"

XXXXX.XX..I I I:I :' .X" .-'':X. .."..XXMXXX::"

'XI"XXM X.I.II" I:"..X"."' .X. .. .'.MXMXXX:.:""":

"X.X"XXX.X.X X." ..X." .X. .'"..:MMXXXXXXX".::.'

X X X"XXXX.X. .X": X". .:".:MXXXXXX:." ."-.

':I X XXXXX" ."|: X". ."...:MXXMMX"--"-. .":.

"."I..X"X" ."I." .-X. ."'.:XMMMXXMXI::. . ::. .":

':.:.X." ."|I: :'X..:".-" .:MMXMXXI::":..-" ": . |

':." .":.: :.X.... ..:XMXMXXXXXXXI:. I . |

.:'.:.::. |: :'X.... .:".:XMMXXXXXII::::: / . |

: 'X '" /|.X:..:. ..:XMMMMXXMMXI::../ I . .:

/X.X' .I / . X|:...::".:MMMMXXX"."-. |. .:

..--.:XXX:......: :|:XXMXI. . ..:MMMXMMXXM:. ". |. |.

/ '"""'/" .:":MMMMX..: . .XXXMXXXX::."-.: ":. :.

.: .... --: .:'.HMMMXI.:...:XXXIX:"XXXXX:. ':. ':.

/MMMA.".:M:"-.. .-/' ./.':XMMMX.. . ..:MXXMX."XXX: .A : . :

IMV"VP::.""-""""-./ /. .:MMMMI:'"---"IXMI":XX.".--'XX ': :

'V .:::XXI::"""" ..-".. :XMMMX. ':. .X'XMI.':X.':XXMMI. : :

":::::-"' ""-:::XXMMM. . "XXXX.'XMX. ":-'XMMMXI .: :

":XMMMM. =: "MXXX.'XXX..:MMMMMXXX. : /

"MMMMM ":XXX"XX .:. .:MMMMMXXMI : /

"MMMMM. .XXXX."X::XXMMMXMMMXXMM / :

":MMMMI'"XMXXI"::XXMMMMMMMMXMM. : :

I"MMMM. "MXX:"MXXMMMMMMMXXXMI ." . :

:. .I . "MM. :..:MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM:.' .. .

I: I' X :MMX :MXXMXMMMMMMMMIMMM" .'

. .IX . I..X:.:MXX":MXXXXMMMMXXMI.:X" .-'

... :. IXX.X 'I.X:I.XXX "XMMMMMMM"XX..:' .XX.

"XX. ::: XXX" X:.IXXXX: 'XMMMMM MMX..' ..XXX.

.::""""::"X: :X" M:XMM MI MMMXXX XMX.' ."I.XIMX.

."XX" XX.""""-:X" IMMIXM X: XXXMM".XXI' '.I..X"M:.

:"X: :X: .::":X. /:X"X"X".' .MMMM.XXMX' .'..X..X."XX.

" :XX:-:::XX: /"":/"X/ X-: ".." "-.XX" .'X...X..X..MI.

XX' :":X" :XX"":/ ." /:"X::": "" ."..X...X...X..MI.

X"..: " :"X-": ." / :X-:".XXXXX--XXX.I.X..X...MX...M

.XXI' .XX -X." :/ :":X" "XXXXXXXX.X.X...X...X...X

. IXXX: .XX" ":X" . ' :"/..". "XXX.X.MI..MX...MXX"

I:. X: .XX"' .-" : .::.. :/ .A.-::. XX.X.XM...MM..X"

I "--.---" ..-" .XA.--"XXXX" """XXXX" ": .X.XMX..XM..X

I I"---""""" ""XXXX" :X"X :X""X ': : .X.X:.XXX.X..XX

I I A . X""X " " ' : . :. ".I.XMM-"X::X

I I ..:X:.. . . ' . . : "."..I.:XXX

I I "XXX" ...XX... . .I. .XA"". . :."::XX::X

'X "-..X"X "XXXX" .XX.- -.XXXXX" "XXXXX" "":::.:XX":::X

IXX "-. " X""X ":XXXX" "XXX . X" ": .:".:XX" :::X

I. XX. "-. " ' X""X :X"X . " ..-"..:XX": :::X

I . ::XX. """--. " " " " ..-" ...XX::::: :::X

I :::::XXX. """----.........--" . ..XX" :::::. :::I

': ::::: "XXXX... ..:XXX":: :::::: .':X"

I ::::: :::::"XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX:' ::::: '::::: . :X

I .'::::. ::::: ::::: .::::: :::::. ::III.. X"

: .::::: ::::: ::::: :::::: :::::: :IIIII.I"

:.::::: ::::: ::::: :::::: :::::: :IIIII.X"

:::::: ::::: ::::: ::::::. ::::::. IIIIIIX"

::::. :::::. ::::: ::::::: '::IIII. .XIIIX"

I:::.. '::::: :::::. ':::::: . :IIIII . XXXX"

II:: . ::::: '::::: ::::II . IIIIII ..XXX"

"II.. ::::: ::::: :::III.. IIIXXX..:XX"

". ::III .::::: . ::IIII ..:IIXXX..X"

".:IIII . :::II ..:IIIXX . .IXXXXX:"

"IIIX . ::III . IIXXXX....XXXXX"

"XX. .'IIXX ..'XXXXXI....XX"

".. .IXXX....XXXXXX..X:"

':XXXXI...IXXXXX:"

'":XX::.XX:"

'"-"



#9 · Andres Villasante

29 Jun 2005

.X;

.XX'

.':X'

.:XX' ...

.:XX'.X:':

.':XXXX".:'

.':XMMXX ."

:X. .:.XMMX".:"

X.".-. .:XXMMXX:"

X:":":X .':XMMMMX" .":

X: : ::. .. .:.MMMMM".-".:"

X: :: :.": .-"/ .. .:XXMMMM":" .:"

X:I I I 'I ."XX"..-X:' .XXIMXX".X' ."

"X I I I I": .".XX".XXX" .:XX"MXX"XX'."

X: I I I I:.". . " ".XX"' :XX".MX"XXX.".--.

X:I I I X I I . . .XX" :XX" .MX:XXXXX"'..:

"XXX X XX I I."I.. :. .X" ..:X" .XXXXXXXX:".::"

XXXXX.XX..I I I:I :' .X" .-'':X. .."..XXMXXX::"

'XI"XXM X.I.II" I:"..X"."' .X. .. .'.MXMXXX:.:""":

"X.X"XXX.X.X X." ..X." .X. .'"..:MMXXXXXXX".::.'

X X X"XXXX.X. .X": X". .:".:MXXXXXX:." ."-.

':I X XXXXX" ."|: X". ."...:MXXMMX"--"-. .":.

"."I..X"X" ."I." .-X. ."'.:XMMMXXMXI::. . ::. .":

':.:.X." ."|I: :'X..:".-" .:MMXMXXI::":..-" ": . |

':." .":.: :.X.... ..:XMXMXXXXXXXI:. I . |

.:'.:.::. |: :'X.... .:".:XMMXXXXXII::::: / . |

: 'X '" /|.X:..:. ..:XMMMMXXMMXI::../ I . .:

/X.X' .I / . X|:...::".:MMMMXXX"."-. |. .:

..--.:XXX:......: :|:XXMXI. . ..:MMMXMMXXM:. ". |. |.

/ '"""'/" .:":MMMMX..: . .XXXMXXXX::."-.: ":. :.

.: .... --: .:'.HMMMXI.:...:XXXIX:"XXXXX:. ':. ':.

/MMMA.".:M:"-.. .-/' ./.':XMMMX.. . ..:MXXMX."XXX: .A : . :

IMV"VP::.""-""""-./ /. .:MMMMI:'"---"IXMI":XX.".--'XX ': :

'V .:::XXI::"""" ..-".. :XMMMX. ':. .X'XMI.':X.':XXMMI. : :

":::::-"' ""-:::XXMMM. . "XXXX.'XMX. ":-'XMMMXI .: :

":XMMMM. =: "MXXX.'XXX..:MMMMMXXX. : /

"MMMMM ":XXX"XX .:. .:MMMMMXXMI : /

"MMMMM. .XXXX."X::XXMMMXMMMXXMM / :

":MMMMI'"XMXXI"::XXMMMMMMMMXMM. : :

I"MMMM. "MXX:"MXXMMMMMMMXXXMI ." . :

:. .I . "MM. :..:MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM:.' .. .

I: I' X :MMX :MXXMXMMMMMMMMIMMM" .'

. .IX . I..X:.:MXX":MXXXXMMMMXXMI.:X" .-'

... :. IXX.X 'I.X:I.XXX "XMMMMMMM"XX..:' .XX.

"XX. ::: XXX" X:.IXXXX: 'XMMMMM MMX..' ..XXX.

.::""""::"X: :X" M:XMM MI MMMXXX XMX.' ."I.XIMX.

."XX" XX.""""-:X" IMMIXM X: XXXMM".XXI' '.I..X"M:.

:"X: :X: .::":X. /:X"X"X".' .MMMM.XXMX' .'..X..X."XX.

" :XX:-:::XX: /"":/"X/ X-: ".." "-.XX" .'X...X..X..MI.

XX' :":X" :XX"":/ ." /:"X::": "" ."..X...X...X..MI.

X"..: " :"X-": ." / :X-:".XXXXX--XXX.I.X..X...MX...M

.XXI' .XX -X." :/ :":X" "XXXXXXXX.X.X...X...X...X

. IXXX: .XX" ":X" . ' :"/..". "XXX.X.MI..MX...MXX"

I:. X: .XX"' .-" : .::.. :/ .A.-::. XX.X.XM...MM..X"

I "--.---" ..-" .XA.--"XXXX" """XXXX" ": .X.XMX..XM..X

I I"---""""" ""XXXX" :X"X :X""X ': : .X.X:.XXX.X..XX

I I A . X""X " " ' : . :. ".I.XMM-"X::X

I I ..:X:.. . . ' . . : "."..I.:XXX

I I "XXX" ...XX... . .I. .XA"". . :."::XX::X

'X "-..X"X "XXXX" .XX.- -.XXXXX" "XXXXX" "":::.:XX":::X

IXX "-. " X""X ":XXXX" "XXX . X" ": .:".:XX" :::X

I. XX. "-. " ' X""X :X"X . " ..-"..:XX": :::X

I . ::XX. """--. " " " " ..-" ...XX::::: :::X

I :::::XXX. """----.........--" . ..XX" :::::. :::I

': ::::: "XXXX... ..:XXX":: :::::: .':X"

I ::::: :::::"XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX:' ::::: '::::: . :X

I .'::::. ::::: ::::: .::::: :::::. ::III.. X"

: .::::: ::::: ::::: :::::: :::::: :IIIII.I"

:.::::: ::::: ::::: :::::: :::::: :IIIII.X"

:::::: ::::: ::::: ::::::. ::::::. IIIIIIX"

::::. :::::. ::::: ::::::: '::IIII. .XIIIX"

I:::.. '::::: :::::. ':::::: . :IIII

#10 · Andres Villasante

29 Jun 2005

.X;

.XX'

.':X'

.:XX' ...

.:XX'.X:':

.':XXXX".:'

.':XMMXX ."

:X. .:.XMMX".:"

X.".-. .:XXMMXX:"

X:":":X .':XMMMMX" .":

X: : ::. .. .:.MMMMM".-".:"

X: :: :.": .-"/ .. .:XXMMMM":" .:"

X:I I I 'I ."XX"..-X:' .XXIMXX".X' ."

"X I I I I": .".XX".XXX" .:XX"MXX"XX'."

X: I I I I:.". . " ".XX"' :XX".MX"XXX.".--.

X:I I I X I I . . .XX" :XX" .MX:XXXXX"'..:

"XXX X XX I I."I.. :. .X" ..:X" .XXXXXXXX:".::"

XXXXX.XX..I I I:I :' .X" .-'':X. .."..XXMXXX::"

'XI"XXM X.I.II" I:"..X"."' .X. .. .'.MXMXXX:.:""":

"X.X"XXX.X.X X." ..X." .X. .'"..:MMXXXXXXX".::.'

X X X"XXXX.X. .X": X". .:".:MXXXXXX:." ."-.

':I X XXXXX" ."|: X". ."...:MXXMMX"--"-. .":.

"."I..X"X" ."I." .-X. ."'.:XMMMXXMXI::. . ::. .":

':.:.X." ."|I: :'X..:".-" .:MMXMXXI::":..-" ": . |

':." .":.: :.X.... ..:XMXMXXXXXXXI:. I . |

.:'.:.::. |: :'X.... .:".:XMMXXXXXII::::: / . |

: 'X '" /|.X:..:. ..:XMMMMXXMMXI::../ I . .:

/X.X' .I / . X|:...::".:MMMMXXX"."-. |. .:

..--.:XXX:......: :|:XXMXI. . ..:MMMXMMXXM:. ". |. |.

/ '"""'/" .:":MMMMX..: . .XXXMXXXX::."-.: ":. :.

.: .... --: .:'.HMMMXI.:...:XXXIX:"XXXXX:. ':. ':.

/MMMA.".:M:"-.. .-/' ./.':XMMMX.. . ..:MXXMX."XXX: .A : . :

IMV"VP::.""-""""-./ /. .:MMMMI:'"---"IXMI":XX.".--'XX ': :

'V .:::XXI::"""" ..-".. :XMMMX. ':. .X'XMI.':X.':XXMMI. : :

":::::-"' ""-:::XXMMM. . "XXXX.'XMX. ":-'XMMMXI .: :

":XMMMM. =: "MXXX.'XXX..:MMMMMXXX. : /

"MMMMM ":XXX"XX .:. .:MMMMMXXMI : /

"MMMMM. .XXXX."X::XXMMMXMMMXXMM / :

":MMMMI'"XMXXI"::XXMMMMMMMMXMM. : :

I"MMMM. "MXX:"MXXMMMMMMMXXXMI ." . :

:. .I . "MM. :..:MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM:.' .. .

I: I' X :MMX :MXXMXMMMMMMMMIMMM" .'

. .IX . I..X:.:MXX":MXXXXMMMMXXMI.:X" .-'

... :. IXX.X 'I.X:I.XXX "XMMMMMMM"XX..:' .XX.

"XX. ::: XXX" X:.IXXXX: 'XMMMMM MMX..' ..XXX.

.::""""::"X: :X" M:XMM MI MMMXXX XMX.' ."I.XIMX.

."XX" XX.""""-:X" IMMIXM X: XXXMM".XXI' '.I..X"M:.

:"X: :X: .::":X. /:X"X"X".' .MMMM.XXMX' .'..X..X."XX.

" :XX:-:::XX: /"":/"X/ X-: ".." "-.XX" .'X...X..X..MI.

XX' :":X" :XX"":/ ." /:"X::": "" ."..X...X...X..MI.

X"..: " :"X-": ." / :X-:".XXXXX--XXX.I.X..X...MX...M

.XXI' .XX -X." :/ :":X" "XXXXXXXX.X.X...X...X...X

. IXXX: .XX" ":X" . ' :"/..". "XXX.X.MI..MX...MXX"

I:. X: .XX"' .-" : .::.. :/ .A.-::. XX.X.XM...MM..X"

I "--.---" ..-" .XA.--"XXXX" """XXXX" ": .X.XMX..XM..X

I I"---""""" ""XXXX" :X"X :X""X ': : .X.X:.XXX.X..XX

I I A . X""X " " ' : . :. ".I.XMM-"X::X

I I ..:X:.. . . ' . . : "."..I.:XXX

I I "XXX" ...XX... . .I. .XA"". . :."::XX::X

'X "-..X"X "XXXX" .XX.- -.XXXXX" "XXXXX" "":::.:XX":::X

IXX "-. " X""X ":XXXX" "XXX . X" ": .:".:XX" :::X

I. XX. "-. " ' X""X :X"X . " ..-"..:XX": :::X

I . ::XX. """--. " " " " ..-" ...XX::::: :::X

I :::::XXX. """----.........--" . ..XX" :::::. :::I

': ::::: "XXXX... ..:XXX":: :::::: .':X"

I ::::: :::::"XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX:' ::::: '::::: . :X

I .'::::. ::::: ::::: .::::: :::::. ::III.. X"

: .::::: ::::: ::::: :::::: :::::: :IIIII.I"

:.::::: ::::: ::::: :::::: :::::: :IIIII.X"

:::::: ::::: ::::: ::::::. ::::::. IIIIIIX"

::::. :::::. ::::: ::::::: '::IIII. .XIIIX"

I:::.. '::::: :::::. ':::::: . :IIIII . XXXX"

II:: . ::::: '::::: ::::II . IIIIII ..XXX"

"II.. ::::: ::::: :::III.. IIIXXX..:XX"

". ::III .::::: . ::IIII ..:IIXXX..X"

".:IIII . :::II ..:IIIXX . .IXXXXX:"

"IIIX . ::III . IIXXXX....XXXXX"

"XX. .'IIXX ..'XXXXXI....XX"

".. .IXXX....XXXXXX..X:"

':XXXXI...IXXXXX:"

'":XX::.XX:"

'"-"