The (Un ) Affordable Healthcare Law

Any takers for this Topic ?

Hopefully some of you living
in ' Socialist ' countries can enlighten us here.

I live in New Zealand which takes care of everybody for less than half of what it costs the U.S.

I was teaching English in South Korea in 2006, with medical insurance, when I went to Uijenbu St. Marys Catholic University Hospital with Angina ( heart disease ) I was in the operating theatre having an angiogram ( which you do awake ) Each stent they dropped in would cost me about 700 dollars. But they said, stents are too dangerous for you, you need bipass surgery. Have you got seven thousand US dollars that you can pay before you leave the hospital. ( the full cost of the operation would have been 40,000 US dollars ) I said no. They wheeled me out of the operating theatre and said to my Korean co-teacher, from Yeoncheon High School. cancel his contract. He could pass away at any time. I got a letter from Korean Immigration giving 14 days to get out of the country.

I went back to New Zealand and after a month on a waiting list, had my heart operation at Auckland Central Hospital for free. Well during my working life in New Zealand I had paid for my operation from my taxes.

Guess what I think about affordable health care, compared to a market system which costs twice as much and give half as much of what you really need.

Every Australian has access to “free” healthcare. It’s paid for by a 1.5% levy on your taxable income (3% for high income earners). The system works well, with minimal waiting for urgent matters and scaled delays depending on the seriousness of the medical problem. All major trauma (e.g. car accident) is dealt with in this public system. You can obtain very affordable private health cover which gives you access to private hospitals (no waiting for non-urgent matters) and choice of doctor in both the public and private system. Many high income earners choose this option as it reduces the levy back to 1.5% and actually works out o be less expensive.

As per @Milne the health care is world class and done at the fraction of the cost of the US system often with better outcomes (e.g. maternal death rates are much lower here than US).

I have been to the US 50-plus times over the past 12 years, I like Americans and I like America. However your healthcare system is a disgrace and out of line with most of the western world. Obama’s efforts to make quality healthcare universally available should be applauded. It is completely affordable in a caring society.

I'm a US ex-pat living in Canada. Healthcare is a big reason why I moved.

The US political and economical system is a disgrace. We're several generations removed from the combination of social and individual that made the country so powerful last century. We've had generations of people brought up under the mindset of "I got mine, screw everybody else." They have no memory of the poverty and hardship that existed before WWII, and the social contracts that it took to get out of it.

Additionally, the country is so enormous, that there's very little any individual can do. Everybody is very far removed from the top leadership. There's no sense of "we're all in it together". Everybody is just protecting themselves from the "other".

While the citizens squabble amongst themselves, fighting over breadcrumbs, the bankers and giant corporations have completely purchased the government. It's ironic. It's a country that rebelled against a monarchy, which is the passing of rule within families. But the distribution of wealth is so distorted, the family of the 1% control everything, and pass that around between themselves. It's no longer a representative democracy, and those in power have done an excellent job of convincing the general populace to vote against their own best interests.

It's a very twisted and depressing situation, and I really don't think it will get better. I think the best thing for the US would be to break off into smaller countries, but it will get a lot worse before it gets better.

I'd say isolation has a lot to do with it, too. It's not easy to travel casually from the US to another country. So the ideas and philosophies become inbred. It's really sad how much people fear other first world countries. The idea of "American Exceptionalism" is very strong. Most people feel there is nothing to learn from what other countries have done, because those other countries are lesser and backwards. They get mocked on a regular basis.

A good healthcare system (Belgian type) is cheaper than a bad one (US-type)... unless you only count the costs that are directly for the state. The indirect costs for the state for having no good system are much bigger but are never counted.

Unfortunately kapitalism combined with election-democracy will only count direct costs... short term and short sighted decisions...

Absolutely agree. There are plenty of us screaming about the long-term effects of not hackng preventive care. People claim that the emergency room is a good fall-back system for those without health insurance. It's insane.

I had a long argument with someone who himself referenced a Wikipedia article ranking various aspects of different health systems around the world. The US was first in only one category, and well below other developed nations in most others. But he couldn't get past the "US IS NUMBER ONE!" line of thinking. He was convinced that my move to Canada was going to be the death of me, even tho Canada was 7th in the ranking system where the US was first, and it was out of 150 or so countries. And of course Canada was above the US in other metrics.

It's why you can't win this argument in the US. People have been taught this warped mindset since birth, and are afraid of outsiders offering suggestions. SOCIALISM IS EVIL!!!! It's a very "all or nothing" kind of mindset.

Ugh, sorry to rant. It's just so frustrating and depressing.

Interesting .... ( pfafulous ) / I agree with comments about this # 1 mindset here in the U S A.
But must admit, I am very concerned about Socialism 'taking over' this country / It must be the ' Big Money Doctors, Lawyers, etc here who are afraid of getting knocked out of that 1% Group - So they've spread propaganda recently!

I have argued with people who still feel that our U S military is far superior to all others! I say it is all hogwash.

Btw, most doctors & 'healthcare workers' here in the U S defend the high costs and exclaim 'you
cannot put a price on saving a human life! '
( one way or another , they 'll make their money )

The sad truth is our Middle Class seems to pay more than a 'Lion's Share' of everything / Today, we have over 48 million people collecting Food Stamps in the USA - this is a fact \ I figure that is about 1 out of 5 people..... ( not certain ) / But I am certain that our
'Free Market System ' has changed in the past decade./
Also, our government is in debt of over 17 trillion dollars ( and counting )...

Why, in your mind, is socialism a dirty word? What does it mean to you?

To me, the US is about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Access to health care (including preventive) for everybody falls under 'life' for me.

How 'free' are you if you need to spend your life afraid that you're just one big illness or accident away from being poor for the rest of your life?

For that matter, why does it make sense to tie healthcare to employment? Is that fair to the small business owners? It's not uncommon for somebody to stay at a crappy job because they need the health insurance. Is that freedom? Does this assist the pursuit of happiness? Heck, a good health plan is part of the reason to take one job over another. Is the health of our families now a commodity?

Every other developed nation on the planet has some sort of a socialized health system. And yet, in the US, the average citizen pays MORE for uneven coverage. What do you think happens with all the emergency room visits that don't get paid because poor people simply can't afford it? We're paying more money for fewer services. And on top of that, it's difficult to calculate the long-term costs behind someone not getting adequate care or health education at a young age, and then utilizing money and resources later in life for things that come from decades of ignorance and neglect.

Centralizing and socializing is for everybody's benefit.

FWIW, I'm one of the people who fell through the cracks in the US. For the past decade, I only had health coverage for a short period of time. Part of this was due to changing careers. Also for many years I worked for a small business that couldn't afford a group plan. They paid me a little more to make up for it, but private coverage for myself was $700/mo. I decided to take my chances.

The reason for this was because of a congenital heart condition I had as a child. All tests I had done since then showed I was fine. My bloodwork was solidly in the "excellent health" ranges no matter what tests you did on it. And yet, $8k a year for health insurance. I can only imagine what it'd have been had I been married or had kids.

Now that I'm in Canada, everything is awesome. I've had many tests done, including a 24-hour monitor that was delivered to me as a house call on a weekend! Since everything is connected, the various independent hospitals and clinics all have access to my information, so communication is a breeze. They already have my information and my records. They call AND email me when appointments are coming up. They've been very good at explaining to me what's going on and what I should do. I've even gone to classes to learn about risk factors and treatment plans for a separate condition that's popped up. And as it turns out, since I'm sort of a rare case, they want me to take part in some studies and have even more specialized care.

That's right, they are offering me even more healthcare than I thought I needed, and they take care of all the paperwork! All I need to do is wait for an email or phone call. And I can look up all my labwork online, too.

When I go to an appointment, there's not even a copay. I tell ya, it's really kind of weird leaving a doctor with nothing but a wave and a "have a nice day."

No, in your mind .... access to healthcare should be free!
( but as a Social Studies teacher taught us -in the 70s - freedom is not free / never has been been - Someone will have to pay for 'things' )

Also, this very same teacher ( & other history professors ) taught a 'Natural Progression'
of a Democracy to Socialism to ( yes .... drumroll ) Communism or a Dictatorship !!!

This same teacher asked my 10th grade class - Is a 'free lunch' Free ?? / Most in class scratched their heads, but his point was simply .... Someone has to pay for things! Period.
There are way too many in this country already living ' Off the Dole Out ' -see 17 trillion in red-ink!
( also , ask anyone in the U K what they pay in taxes ?? Well over 50 % to the Queen, etc.... )

I am not so much against Socialism but damn well for a Democracy !
( i do feel that these 1%ers control how much 'We' spend on healthcare , insurance(s) , food, gasoline, heating , etc. etc. )

Also , your ' Have a nice day ' comment reminds me:

If only it were that simple & "Pie' would fall down from the sky ! We could all 'Share the Wealth'
& live happily ever after !

( You see some 'Entity' is paying for your care - It is called a Socialist form of Government ).

I read your comment about the combination of Social and individual that made Our Country so powerful before World war II ....
Hmm , it was mostly each individual working his/her ass off just to survive !

Have you asked anyone about 'rationing of Food Stamps' back then?

( guess it is an interesting idea to just leave this country /
'Draft - Dodgers' left in the 1960s and '70s / the Auto- Industry moved abroad / )

Have you heard of the WPA?

FWIW, my taxes in Canada are about the same as they were in the US.

pardon me , but what is FWIW ?

never mind .... For What It s Worth !!!

About socialism... (In bad English and with much to less details to be correct anyways)

Strange enough in werstern Europe it is not seen as the same as communism, which it is made in the US. (During the witch-hunt time in the early stages of the cold war.)

Here (Europe) there used to be three big political view that were well excepted by everyone: socialism, liberalism, and the (christian)democrats somewhere in between. Nowadays some populist, nationalist, regionalist, and other parties have come in between.
NOTE for US standards, your democrats are somewhere equal to our liberals, while the view points of your republicans are what we call 'extreme right wing' and quiet frankly most of us find them disgusting (indeed half of your senate we* think is disgusting). *I guess I am a bit to much simplifying.

communists is a bad word but has not so much to do with socialists, apart from the fact that communist seem to use the same terms for there viewpoints.

It is troubling me to see that while there is so much difference between socialism and communism, that a 1950's campaign in the US still seems to have covered the entire American mindset.

I see some comments have been repeatedly made that "nothing is free", as though that comment is actually telling us something that is useful to this discussion. Umm, that is right, nothing is free, in New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Europe, people pay for their health cover through taxes.

Most people hardly ever visit a hospital, except for child births, until their forties. They pay taxes through their working life, and by the time they need intensive health care treatment, they have already payed for it. They paid for it when they were able and healthy. They have NO FEAR about finding the money when they are unable and unhealthy.

Americans tend to be some of the most "over operated on" people in the world, but their life expectancy is the same as Cubans.

Sorry , David ; I shall attempt to explain !

Here in America, there are the Wealthy ( 1 to 5 % ) , the Middle Class , and the Lower Class ( or Poor )- CALL it what you like .

Our Liberal Democrats & certain Republicans have spent so 'damn' much money ( i don't apologize)
that the USA government is in debt ( red- Ink ) of more than 17 trillion - US dollars !
( there are a large number of reasons - but one is that over 47 Million people are collecting Food Stamps plus other assorted programs ! Yes, two Wars since 2001 have added 4 to 5 trillion dollars to this growing debt ! !

I SHOUT that ' Someone has to pay ' all of the time ! ( please consult ANY American History professor for more info. )
Our government takes in say 2.5 trillion in taxes, etc. ( not certain of exact figures ) and spends
over 3.5 trillion annually............... ( anyone can do this math ) . We are headed for the plight of many European countries - see Greece , Spain , etc.

Then , the govt. has the Gall to shove a healthcare bill down our throats - they 've spent over
660 million dollars ( just this year alone implementing a computer network.... ).
Our fear ( middle America , etc ) is this huge GROWTH in spending is spiraling out of
control.

( i fall in the Middle class )
Ask yourself this simple question:
Could any business anywhere in the world
stay afloat if it operated this carelessly for more than 5 years ?

Simply put, there are far too many more ' Takers ' than ' Givers' ( or workers ) in the
grand old U.S.A. today !

Read online about the city of Detroit, Michigan ! ( this city declared as bankrupt).

Once you have more takers than makers (givers) then the republic is doomed. I believe Ben Franklin said that over 200 years ago.

The last election was the opening volley of class warfare in the USA and guess who won? Detroit is gone and California is not far behind. Then the USA will follow. You can call us from now on
THE UNITED STATES OF GREECE

OK, I usually try to stay out of ranting matches with those who appear at least slightly schizophrenic, people who appear to get their information from no other source than Fox News and with those who seem to have deeply held beliefs with little or no solid evidence to back up those beliefs. That being said, I would like to just make it clear that the views entered here by those from the United States of America do not represent the views of all of us. Let's all listen for the retaliatory troll-rant.

@elroy: I was considering making a parody troll post, but I was afraid that no matter how ridiculous I sounded, no one would realize I was joking =P

@scottygr8 and mtbikesman: check out the Congressional Budget Office's debt projections:
http://www.cbo.gov/publication/44172
Look at the second chart on that page. It really doesn't look that bad.

shalev, I looked at the charts.

The federal debt is the highest it has been since WWII and going up. That really is not that bad? How bad does it have to be to be "that bad"?

p.s. I never watch Fox News. I read the L.A. Times and sometimes The Wall Street Journal. I never watch MSNBC either. I don't call people with different opinions trolls or schizophrenics.

I have no set ideology but I am a person who likes to see money handled responsibly and to see the economy grow rather than be stifled. My philosophy is "what ever works best" and what we have now does not work best - at least for the overall economy it does not work best.

A health system that does not cost twice as much as most others in the world, and which does not deliver half as much as most others in the world, could be a step in the right direction in reducing the countries debt. Oh, and collecting enough tax to pay for the things you need would be a help too.

oh, sorry, country's debt. I am a terrible speller :-(

I heard the recently discovered paintings stolen by Nazis were valued up to one billion euros. Why don't we, as winners of WWII, just take them as some sort of payment (after all, have the Jews paid us after we saved them?) and therefore reduce the country's debt by a good 5%.

Now, on a more serious note, I'd like to ask why we provide food stamps and other stuff like that to the poor. Not only it's obviously a direct loss of money, but it's also clearly not a indirect gain of money, since they probably do not generate any wealth (or they wouldn't be poor). What we can do instead is simply to banish them to Mexico or Canada. In both case, they'll have a way "better" - since more socialist, life. Upper classes shouldn't have to deal with the life of those choosing to be poor by lack of hard work.

Poe's law?

@Lecanardfou: the debt is 17 TRILLION. That's 17,000 billion. So 1 billion is not 5%, it's 0.005%. Also, Canada doesn't just let people in because the US doesn't want them. Neither does Mexico.

Finally, most people on food stamps are on them temporarily, and will have a productive job later in their life.

@mtbikesman: The federal debt is hardly going up as a percentage of gdp. Maybe a bit. It really is not that bad, because the real (read: inflation-adjusted) interest rate on new debt is about zero. That's actually an amazing deal! The US should be borrowing a lot of money and investing it in its economy.

I'd like to point out that many economists believe that when the economy is in a recession, the government SHOULD be borrowing, because that provides stimulus. An economy is not a business - the usual rules and intuitions don't apply.

Anyway, if for some reason the US needed to get rid of its debt, this could easily be achieved by increasing taxes a bit. Canadians and Europeans all live with higher taxes. It's not that bad.

Fed debt vs GDP? Are you kidding me? Since 2008 the debt vs GDP has skyrocketed the likes of which we have not seen since the beginnings of WWII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_public_debt

see the blue graph

And your solution is to increase taxes??? No government on earth has taxed their way to prosperity. But many have taxed their way to destruction.

Governments that overspend get into trouble quickly. Look at Detroit and look at California. Both were mismanaged badly and both are broke. California used to be a very well run state but no more. Now it is considered to be the worst run state in the USA. Why? Overspending and over regulation and driving away a once thriving economy to other more business friendly states.

If California didn't have the best weather on earth, things would probably be a lot worse.

Wowser, let's change the topic? How about RELIGON!

@shalev, thx for not feeding the trolls ;)

You seem to know much in economy, could you or anyone knowing something make some points clear for most of us who don't know anything about it?

Does someone really need to pay?

In the end is it not always the "poor" people paying either with taxes (because there are not enough wealthy people for paying these trillions) or by life becoming more expensive compared to their income (inflation), or because they are the only productive people (instead of just playing with money, insurance or technology like most of us).

What does really happen when a country lives above its means, is it just that the money it borrows become more expensive so people and industry will take more time for paying the interests?

Does money really have value, or is in only thrust of people toward one another?

Oh yes, does the economy reflect mean people happiness ?

Is it really important to have a rock solid economy with a very solid upperclass securing 90% of the wealth, a well armed army and a very powerful police ready to put 10% of population in jail?

Then people need some hope, yes what's wrong with religion?

iwin Religion huh? OK I am game. Here we go:

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE

and I guess I could add in advance

HAPPY EASTER too :)

LaCanardfou , you 've got it !!!

Send all poor & 'free-loaders' over
to the socialist - loving countries !

( The simple reason so many are on 'Food Stamps' is to provide a very
strong ' Voting Base ' of people - hence over 47 million.......more are recruited annually ) the math is simple.

It's good that we can have these hyperbole-free, intellectually honest conversations here on LG. Elsewhere on the internet, this would quickly degenerate into mudslinging and trolling.

I apologize, I completely misread the OP. I thought he was earnestly curious how the entire rest of the world works, and was putting 'socialist' in quotes as a way of acknowledging the propaganda campaign in the US.

Whoops.

Can we contrast sexual orientation of good players vs poor players. That subject should be totally free of controversy - or not!

Well , I must apologize also.

( guess I was testing the waters to see what others know about our Healthcare system ) Have only
spoken to a few from the U. K. These fellows also do not share my dislike for
'Socialized Medicine.' Yet they do complain about very high taxes compared to ours in America.

@mtbikesman , your points on California & Detroit reminded me to ask - Just what does
the rundown city of Detroit have to offer if and when it recovers ? Looks like a big pile of
abandoned buildings and slums from pictures shown online.

@shalev , how bad is too bad ? Don't you realize who puts these 'debt projections' out for public viewing? Is 17 trillion in debt not too bad ? ? Oh Shalev , shalev , shalev

Guess I should have just sung:

" K - serah - serah ....... whatever will be, will be "

[ NO apology for this chant / it just helps to sing a bit ]

Perhaps I should have asked if anyone here read the 'thousands' of pages in this new Law.
Or do they trust that Nancy Pelosi will fix things.

( but wait, , she hails from California ! )

Ahh yes :

" All the Gold in California is in a bank in the ...... in somebody else's name ....... "

I've having a difficult time understanding what you're trying to say. Are you asking questions, looking for answers? Or are your questions rhetorical in nature? Please speak plainly. This dance is tiring.

@Dustin: LOL!

scottygr8, mtbikesman: you guys seem to think that universal healthcare, taxes, foodstamps, etc. are all terrible for the country, and that the US is headed for disaster because of this (correct me if I'm misstating your beliefs). If that's the case, how do you explain the fact that the rest of the developed world has higher taxes, universal healthcare, and in general more welfare and higher government spending than the US? Is the entire developed world headed for disaster?

Shalev, Don't put word in my mouth. I never said that. I merely said we cannot spend more than we take in. Or at least we can't do it for long to the extent we are doing it now.

If you are in favor of higher taxes and more government spending then that is your prerogative. I am in favor of less of each. I think my position results in an economy that expands better and is the best for the country as a whole. I believe your position results in a downward spiral much the same as has happened in Detroit and California.

But it is foolish to think you can have more government spending without raising taxes while increasing federal debt. It simply is not sustainable.

Why are services for the benefit of everybody always a fiery debate... yet passing intrusive spying laws and granting no-bid contracts to Haliburton are waved off with a shrug?

Many services are not for the benefit of everyone. They are for the benefit of only some people. The question is "Can we afford to give so many people so many benefits?"

There are a lot of nice things to do, but we can only do the things we can AFFORD to do. Otherwise, soon we won't be able to do much for anybody. We will be broke!

@scottygr8: The reasons why the US debt is so big are numerous and complex. One big reason is that the US dollar is the world's reserve currency, for more on this see "Triffin Dilemma" in Wikipedia. This has little to do with Americans living on the dole and more to do with your treasury printing US dollars to stimulate local consumption and to meet the massive external demand for dollars.

Agree with several that (paraphrasing) high tax, socialist societies that fund universal healthcare from general taxation are the most fair. You'll find "unlucky losers" or "undeserving winners" in any system.

Healthcare for all seems to fit well within "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Considering the entire rest of the world agrees with this, it's baffling how the US is still fighting over the very idea, let alone figuring out a good way to manage it.

Access to health services should not be a luxury, or a bargaining chip for employment. Denying health services is, in the long run, even more expensive to those who feel they deserve to keep it for themselves.

"Sure, we have all these great doctors, and we can maintain quality of care by simply centralizing resources... but I don't want to have to wait three months to have a benign mole removed because I deserve it NOW, so since your daddy was raised in poverty and can only get three part-time jobs that don't offer coverage, you now get to suffer a lifetime of problems because you didn't earn the privledge of preventive care when you were a baby. Enjoy that cycle of poverty!"

We're all in this together. Life is too short to stubbornly refuse to save money in the long-term because you feel some people in your country are simply not good enough to enjoy your privilege.