New games

I have played on LG in and off now for about 8 years. I really appreciate the server and the community. I understand the slow accumulation of new games, and the careful choice of the very best games. For some time now I have been hoping that one of the other top Gipf games, Tzaar or Yinsh would be added. After a long search I found another server, Boîte a Jeux, that offers these two games and meets my requirements - turn-based and playable on my iPad (i.e., Java not required). Having said that, I will offer my 2 cents on what other games I would still like to see. Many of the classical abstract games categories are already present. Two obvious omissions so far are a checkers game and a mancala game. I would really like to see, perhaps, International Checkers and/or one of the top 4-rank mancalas on LG. And I would love to see a bluff game like Mentalis on LG!

Hi Kerry,

I do not want to see more games. After playing for nearly 12 years on this site I did not manage to try every new game. We have the same challenge at brettspielwelt.de - just too many games. I prefer choices. So getting a new game I would love to see a different one out.

Playing via ipad most time
Tobias

I play at http://www.boiteajeux.net as CleverBonhomme
if you desire a game,lets talk

I think more games on LG would be a benefit. LG is loosing players. More games would make LG more attractiv. My suggestions are Cannon, Murus Gallicus, and Xiangqi.

Elsabio, what makes you think LG is losing players?

@z
When your looking at the number of participants of the championships and MCs you will see a decreasing. Maybe those players don't quit LG put they don't play anymore.

It's a good point, Tobias, that I hadn't considered: the small number of games means that the community isn't spread too thinly, and this is one of the strengths of LG compared to other options. On the other hand, adding a widely played traditional game not easily available online may attract an entirely new group of players. I also understand your other point, Tobias, about number of games: over many years of game playing I have always been torn between trying to play one game in depth and playing many games out of curiosity and interest in the varied strategies available.

@Kerry
LG could use a draughts game and your suggestion of International Draughts would be excellent for LG players because the game offers a lot for new players that are willing to investigate and be baffled. However, at its highest level the game is terminal, if not dead, and draws are a most common outcome even at the highest club level. Players who want to redirect their creative energy to a more rewarding end, should switch to Dameo which offers everything International Draughts is famous for, except the multitude of draws.

See also:
Draughts Dissected
On the evolution of Draughts variants

I'm only really interested only in games that differ significantly from ones we currently have. Slither and the blocks game were a positive addition, for example, as they weren't variants of anything. (I'm less positive about Shogi, as it's just another contrived and arbitrary pieces/movement/capture rules game, snore-o-rama.)

Primarily, I'd like to see a simultanious move game, as that has a different game-theoretic structure from everything we currently have here. (Yeah, yeah, I should make RoRoRo's "Footsteps" implementation a bit more usable...)

Incomplete information might be interesting too.

However, there are presently more games here than I have the time to play, so I don't see an urgent *need* for more. But of course I appreciate I'm only 1 person.

Christian Freeling - I just threw out International Draughts as possibility. No doubt Dameo would offer more thrills for the serious checkers player. Or how about Canadian Checkers, beloved of the Québécois, whose 12x12 size, so the story goes, was determined because an early settler couldn't remember the correct size of board?
FatPhil - Shogi is ostensibly contrived and arbitrary, yes. However, so are works of art, and some of them are great. By many measures, Shogi is a great game.

It should be Quebecois, with acute accents on the "e"s.

Like some others, I too think there are enough games for the moment. I would rather see the "daemon" bug exorcised first, then resume the implementation of new games.

The top 12 in registrations for championship are
264 Go 19
200 StreetSoccer
181 Go 9
166 Chess
163 Connect 6
140 Einstein Wuerfelt Nicht
137 Go 13
136 4 in a row
136 Hex 13
133 Gomoku
101 Reversi
100 Twixt PP

These are evenly split between games with long traditions, literature and a global following (Go, Chess, Gomoku, Reversi) and 20th..21st-century games (SS, C6, EWN, Hex, 4ir, Twixt). For a new game to rival their popularity here, it would probably need a pre-existing following outside of LG. That suggests something like, say, Backgammon, Stratego or Cribbage.

Also Chinese Chess (XianQi) must have many players, like Shogi mostly in Asia. The rules are interesting, but like Shogi my experience is 100% losses against ordinary (not high level) software. Maybe playing with humans who start from scratch makes it more interesting (or finding a teacher).

@erratic How it's possible? Chess programs like "Chessmaster" have all level of play from above world champion to (almost?) random. It's strange that your programs was so limited.

I personally think that among 3 most popular version of chess(western, japanese, chinese) the best is western chess. Most important reason is diversity that is greatest in (western) chess. While shogi differ strongly from standard chess because of drop rule, xiangqi is probably to similar to (better I think and definitely more popular in west) standard FIDE/western chess to implement it.

I meant that *I* was losing 100% of the games. I just learned the rules and wanted play. It was like 4 years ago after reading a paper. I downloaded the software which was not high end as stated by its authors. Chinese chess top programs have a similar level to the human world champion. Chess programs are like 500 Elo points stronger than human world champion. But why would I look for a stronger program? What I would have needed was an even weaker program or a teacher.

I understood you and I wrote that some chess program have even very low level equal to children beginner. No possibility of reduce level of play I called "limited", because it's very useful and relative easy to make when programming.

I want add too that statements of author often give nothing. Chess program playing on 1800-2000 elo level is poor, but no beginner ever will be able to win with this program.

I think we should have"sheldon coopers' chess" here...lol

Right at the top of this thread, Kerry Handscomb wrote "For some time now I have been hoping that one of the other top Gipf games, Tzaar or Yinsh would be added."

For what it's worth, I too have been hoping for both Yinsh and Tzaar to appear on LG. That's partly because of their rankings on the Geek:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/abstracts/browse/boardgame?sort=rank&sortdir=asc

and partly because of how well Dvonn has been received here. LG seems a natural home for the games of Kris Burm.

@erratic, try Level 100 Shogi. It's very easy to beat the first levels and not difficult at all to beat the last level (at least on the free version), but, by then, you'll have a better understanding of the game.

@vstjrt, putting aside the combinatorial complexity discussion, which I think is fallacious, Shogi feels much more varied than chess, IMHO.

Not to seem biased, but I feel variety would be served better by adding at least one Draughts variant (and my preferred one is no secret). Draughts has been implemented in one form or another by almost every culture in the world and I feel LG might serve the abstract game community by not ignoring that fact.

I agree with Christian. He is basically echoing my first point at the top about representation of classic game genres.
BTW I don't think Shogi is directly comparable with other chess-type games. The drop rule puts it in a different class of game. It's as much a race game as a mating game - the race to mate.

I also would like to see Dameo on this site. It is an excellent game. PLus as has been mentioned, this site is the only one I know of with no Draughts game.

I find it hard to rebut the fears of fracturing the player base too much, and the argument that new games should bring in new players with more popular games, who then might give in to curiosity and get hooked on Slither or Havannah or name your favorite under-loved modern game.

BUT how many people knew of StreetSoccer or Einstein before they joined this site? It's not a rhetorical question, but those games have more championships players according to MarleysGhost than Reversi or Connect-4. I'm not making a definitive objective statement here, just suggesting that maybe compelling games get players, who maybe just come here because there is Chess _and_ Go, and they are implemented very well. They might find a lot to like in a game like Dameo.

Most of the common case for Dameo refers to high-level play, draw margin, etc. But as a total novice Checkers player the difference in playability is night and day; I find combinations easier to visualize and plan for and the movement protocol much more natural. I have fun playing Dameo, where I mostly just squint and flail at Checkers. Obviously that's just my experience but I doubt I'm the only one.

I agree with you totally! I just have a real hard time playing checkers, especially live games. Can't visualize the combinations needed to make progress. But for some reason, as you said, I find Dameo very interesting and fun to play.

I just don't think adding it would hurt the site as there is not another Draughts game here. Though a far as crossing games go there is Breakthrough. But I think if that game can find fans, then definitely Dameo would win some converts.

I would love to play Dameo here. I prefer turn-based games to live ones. To give an idea of what is possible in terms of combinations and endgames, please check the basic tactics problems and endgames sections at mindsports.

I still want a simultanious-play game.

I love simultaneous action as a mechanic, but it can be hard to implement elegantly (game design-wise, not necessarily software-wise). What are some good ones? I know for abstracts there is Epigo. I would be down for something like that as well, if it's a good game.

I created a variation of NIM with three dimensions (rather than one) with a random number of marbles already removed at the start of the game. However, like NIM, a really good mathematician could probably "solve" the game but so far I am unable to do that.

In my opinion, among the very good games Kris Burm designed, Tzaar is the masterpiece. It's relatively short and therefore appropriate to the turn-based format with slower players. Otherwise, in the 1980s TSR of Dungeons and Dragon's fame produced a line of abstract games. Among the duds were two lovely small games, Steppe and Chase. The latter is delightful strategically and tactically and still.has a small cadre of admirers, as far as I can tell. It would be ideal, I think, for LG gamers. A fine simultaneous movement game is R. Wayne Schmittberger's Ozymandius, although I can find no online references. Someone post the rules here or on BGG, please, if you know of it and have the rules. For a draughts game, I'll cast my vote for Dameo.

Ozymandia

Thanks for referring to this! It's like a nice, minimal intermediary between Risk and A Game of Thrones The Boardgame.

At first glance, I like the looks of Ozymandia. I'll try to play a few games OTB and see what I think.

Thanks for the reference to Ozymandia - I had misremembered the name. I thought I knew Schmittberger's book quite well!

OK, suppose Richard implements Tzaar here. What would happen with the existing Tzaar community at boiteajeux? BTW it is there that Paul Vesely tested and refined his awesome bot (now called WALTZ).

I think we would have two linked Tzaar communities. It is not if you play here you can't play there?

> It is not if you play here you can’t play there?

Well I for one can't play in two Tzaar tournaments at the same time, it would be too many games to play. Others might have no trouble handling 20 games simultaneously. Some people are more game-loyal, some are site-loyal, etc.

My point is that it's not as simple as "more implementations = better". We need to study how Dvonn players feel about their situation and how strong are the links between LG and BAJ Dvonn communities.

BAJ and LG have different strengths, and one could choose. Good points for LG are the tournament structure and time controls. In any case, the two communities may not overlap closely (as I don't think they do for Dvonn).