Slow resigner in Go games

Go players on this site are slower in resigning compared to other sites like Dragon Net. This might be because some players here, especially players in beginners' level are often unable to see what is going on. However, I don't see any reason the advanced player in the following link refuse to resign an "obvious" game.

http://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/game/game.jsp?gid=1501870

What incentives (or penalties) could be provided to encourage players to resign early?

I want opinions only from the players who are familiar with Go.

I agree the game is lost (even if there is a rule not to discuss ongoing games), but the difference is small, around 10 points or less. I think it is more than legitimate to play the game to the end. Especially, since you are a strong player (around 5d maybe) and losing by less than 10 points against a 5d is "almost like a win" and he is playing fast: 177 moves in 2 months is a very nice pace.

You really have not seen the worst in this server: People using their vacation days to extend their time in games lost by 150 points played over one year. Check the last games of the tournament. The last 5 games or so keep 300 players waiting over 3 or 4 extra months on decided games before the next tournament can start. Two (or even six) months after the start of a game everything is ok. This is a turn based server.

PD. I promise I won't delay my own resignation, but I still have hopes against you, probably because I am overoptimistic ;-)

Resignation is a right, not an obligation. Many stupid moves can happen at out low level, 10 points is a small difference. Besides there a finished games by Sakata where he lost by 30 points.

Just a fast example

I don't see why he should resign. My former go teacher (7 dan) used to say that it's good to always play to the end, to practice the endgame.

To Creelo:
You might say it's just a game, but resignation in Go is a sense of virtue as well as manners and respect to one's opponent. This spirit has been heritaged for more than 600 years in the Eastern World.
To Tellmarch:
If you want to practice endgames, ask your friend or teacher, not on tourney games. I sometimes accept such an offer in my club under the condition of about 1 dollar a point, instead of 10 dollars a game for example. BTW, don't forget our Shogi match, it's been kind'a long since you responded last ;)

Well, it's kind of a difficult position :-)

@kokoro, I agree that resignation is an art. You can practice it yourself but cannot force others to do it. Just endure :-)

This beeing said, the very nature of this site gives slow games. I don't mind playing yose for months. Some games I realy try to count the value of every move, as an exercise in precision, right until the end.

Looks likee things are different in Europe. I know some players from Europe in Nihon Ki-In and they are decent as well as respectable. I hope things are better on actual boards up there. I cannot force anyone to do anything, of course, but I hope that players in Europe will practice not only techniques but spirits as well. Many thanks to everyone for opinions.

@erratic: indeed, one should not discuss ongoing games

@kokoko: does it not show disrespect for your opponent by criticising his behaviour to others behind his back? Is that good manners and virtuous behaviour?

Raise the matter with your opponent in a non-boastful and non-condescending way. For example I've often sent to, and received from, my dvonn opponents a message like "looks like I have a couple of points advantage" or "looks like I'll have the last move", and as far as I know nobody's ever been offended by such messages, at least I know I haven't.

@ FatPhil: are you positive the resign issue wasn't asked in the game already? Maybe subtile (in Reversi or Dots games I mostly would say 'Good Game' when I hope my opponent resigns -in case I won, ofcourse).

Maybe http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/kishihp/shigeno/200007-e.htm is of interest in this discussion...

It's the thoughts of a professional player living in Europe.
An extract:

"Well, let's forget about all the theorizing and look at what the actual differences are.

The first thing that impressed me is that overseas go is a game. That's so elementary it hardly needs saying, but I sometimes hear stories from Japanese who get upset about the bad manners of foreign opponents who don't resign even when they are hopelessly behind. Sometimes they even end up pulling off an upset, which is even more upsetting. There are players who when they are losing by 100 points are happy if they can catch up and reduce the losing margin to 50 points.

No one resigns at cards or mahjong, no matter how far they're behind, do they? For these players, go is the same thing."

Maybe another reason is simply ignorance? I wasn't aware that it was so shocking for Japanese people to continue playing in a go game when losing.

For any point-accumulating game I can think of the the West, there is the idea that loss by smaller points-margin is still more worthwhile than by a greater margin, so noone is surprised at a loser still struggling their best to the end. But perhaps the Japanese conception of Go is that it is ideally something more like Hex -- just win or loss, period. Consider the fine detail of setting komi with a .5 addition to ensure no draws.

@Nathan win-loss is the second issue in Go. Basically go can be regarded as a game of give-take. Players can make coversation or deal(trade) without languages. In older times Shoguns in China, Korea, Japan are said to have learned how they should act and behave in the actual lives throughout playing Go. Nowadays, many CEO all over the world are said to be big fans of Go. This is probably due to the reason mentioned.

@FatPhil; I suggested my opponent's resignation several times in the
game. You can find then in our game. I waited and waited, but finally I did in indirect expressions like "This looks obvious." or "I wonder how white will try to win this game from here." However, I got no responses from my opponent. He might have put me on the blacklist.

However, like I said in the posting above, Go players with some degree of skill and sensitivity, usually "feel" the situation and if he feels loss is obvious, they try to seach the timing to resign. The opponent who is a favorite can feel this by underdog's move, so the favorite seldom suggest opponent's resignation by words, just trying to make the situation proper for the opponent to resign with dignity.

As for the posting here, I asked my opponent for his permission at least
twice, one in the game and one by private message, but I got no responses
either.
I do not mean to blame him here, because he is just one of many who have
similar (slow in resigning) tendencies.

Finally, I just add a bit more. I also play on Dragon Go Server --- another turn-based Go sever --- and there I have played many European players so far. I got a feeling that over 90% of the players there are decent and respectable. (this holds true on real-time Go servers, like "Yugen no Ma" or "Panda Net"). There is no touney on DGS and I have played only players with 2-kyu and up.
In Go games in general, whether or not he is a pro or ama, a player has a kind of feeling that he is trying to grab the cloud in the sky at the beginning of the game, but during the middle game he comes to see what is going on.
My opponents on DGS should have seen what was going on when at least late-middle game began.
My rating there is 1-dan+35%(when it reaches 1-dan+50%, my rating becomes
2-dan).Levels both in skills and spirits are apparently higher.
The bottom line: This difference in levels might explain slow resignings
on this site.

@kokoro: You can find them in our game.

? Only the game participants can see in-game messages.

This site is for weak (like me) and strong players. Sometimes I know that I will loose but for me winning or loosing is not the main thing. I want to learn with the game that i'm playing. I only resign wen I know that is not possible to learn more with that game. If you want to play only with strong players you can invite them to play with you. playing a game is not just loosing or winning...

@kokoro - OK, if you've got a non-responsive opponent, then venting your frustration here is understandable.

Players build reputations. We can only hope that people aim to build positive reputations, but there's little that can be done if they don't care and build negative ones.

One of the things I like about the small games (dots & boxes, for example), is that at almost all levels of play, people will happily play down to the very final box, even if the game was decided half a dozen moves earlier. That's just about enough time for a little chit-chat and post-mortem, too. For the big games, of course, it's not just a couple of moves each, it can be dozens, so it's more of an issue.

I don't think is sensible or polite to ask someone to resign. Maybe only if it is your own pupil, when you teach him.

People are playing for different reasons, maybe some really like to count a close game (who decides how close you should resign?). Here on LG is a tournament with time limits, so why not play till the end.

While someone not resigning is annoying (because you get scared you might make a mistake and loose a good game :-)), someone asking you to resign is plainly upsetting.

Also, when you can read the rest of the game clearly, you don't need to think much and can answer immediately. This shortens the game a lot. I have finished games playing 20 moves a day. (That of course requires compatible time zones.)

Playing to the end is definitely not bad behavior. Playing after the end or abusing the time limits/vacations on decided games is annoying. imo.

There's one particular opponent in one discipline where both of us are too lazy to count, so - once the win/loss value of the game is clearly decided - our comments will be "who's is it - by how much?" followed by "dunno, can't be bothered to count yet, let's play a few more moves". As we've been doing this for years, I suspect neither of us is ever going to change behaviour, nor would we want to - the mellow way is the best way.

Different cultural spirits and mindsets seem to follow strongly with different games... I respect that and I like it. There is an opportunity to learn:
What I learned from the discussion above is that I need to learn to resign much earlier than I usually do in Go games (maybe also Shogi games). This means also that I need to become better in estimating the current value and dynamic as well as improve my feeling for the game. Probably I can learn more about Go trying to learn to resign as early as possible instead of playing beyond the end. I am happy this discussion came up.
Thank you kokoro!

However in other games I think there could just as well be other spirits and cultures, where I can learn more about the games, not resigning early.

It is also interesting that in some games, such as arimaa (http://arimaa.com/arimaa/), resigning early is actually considered to be bad manners. The match rules for arimaa state that
"A player may resign at any time to end the match. However, resigning is highly discouraged. Continuing a game to a natural finish is highly encouraged."

I think it depends a lot on the game. In arimaa when the result is given, there is often not many moves to go. Finishing the game is good for the community because the spectators might not be able to see why it is a win.

However in GO, it simply takes ages.

Resign is the badest possible move, it loses directly.

Asking someone to resign is bad behaviour. In fact I would play to the bitter end then just to annoy you, kokoro. :D

Contrary to common practice, I like resignations in D&B more than in most other games, because playing to the end thoroughly obscures the course of play.

There is a little epilogue to this story, confirming the difference in criterion between different parts of the world. For me the last move, 261 from black, is considered rude (unless of course, the player is a total novice who doesn't understand the game which is not the case). After 260, black should politely fill l5 (k5 in LG coords) and the pass.

Kokoro won by 4.5; Martin played great yose. It is true than kokoro did not dispute some of the 1 point ko fights to make the game shorter, but still the endgame was worth playing and the advantage wasn't that big.

kokoro doesn't like the medicine he recomends to others:

http://littlegolem.net/jsp/game/game.jsp?gid=1485443&nmove=201
http://littlegolem.net/jsp/game/game.jsp?gid=1555827&nmove=90

And another dan player in the same league:

http://littlegolem.net/jsp/game/game.jsp?gid=1545930&nmove=40
http://littlegolem.net/jsp/game/game.jsp?gid=1542000&nmove=117

This discussion is pointless, on Internet anything goes.

This is actually the reason that i never got into go. The game seems weird to me.

Well, I would say it seems weird because is more than a game, but this is only praise from a fan.
It's more like occasional weird behavior of players (me included). I am sure every game has it's share.

@erratic
the score being 4.5 does not mean its close. The importat thing is how CERTAIN the result is. If say 30 moves from the end its a clear win for black, then maybe white should resign sooner.
Sometimes the End result is huge, but its ok because there was a really complicated fight that is decided at the last minute.
Finally proper resignation avoids unnecessary moves on the board which should embarrass the loser as it implies either that he still hasn't read the position
or is playing on the principle that his opponent is blind or stupid.
Unfortunately I dont always manage to follow these principles myself, but I admire those who do.

I agree. In the end the player who is ahead does not fight every point, but still when you are stronger you don't give up points for nothing either. So if the gap got so narrow it is because there were still lots of points in dispute when this thread started.

The problem is we do not know, at our weak level, how the game will end. Everybody on this site makes mistakes of 2, 3, 5 or even 10 points in the end game.

It is easy to say after the game ended the score is 4.5p so it was not close. But this score is by no means the perfect score, possible 50 moves earlier.

"our weak level" ??

Every move I play is a perfect move ..

.. on a different board ;-)

@erratic "So if the gap got so narrow it is because there were still lots of points in dispute when this thread started."

the point is, from Kokoro's point of view, the gap may have got narrower, but the certainty of the win, and therefore need for resignation was increased.

[color=red] test[/color]

The "need" of resignation can be felt only by the one behind. For the winning side is only wishful thinking :-)