Please explain the Infinity tournament

I've read the two threads posted so far -- including Hjallti's thread, which has drawn no replies -- but cannot figure out what's going on or what the purpose is.

Let's consider this Einstein "DEFAULT 1.2" tournament, for instance:
http://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/in/tournament.jsp?trnid=einstein.in.DEFAULT1.2

What's going on? Why does it show games from DEFAULT 1.1 as well as 1.2? How do you move up or down, and why are players who lost ahead of those who won? Also, some players have won (or lost) two games, but only have +1 (or -1). Will this tournament continue into infinity (or until the Mayans destroy the world), or end at some point?

Thanks,

Rex

Rex,
My guess is
the games are automatically evaluated in separately
but the points are only added just before creating the next round, which consists 2 players close in standings to be paired (Swiss). that way there will be 'often' games for the first place while new players can get in to the top regions rather quick (by giving 0 to a draw and -1) new players are scoring as good as mediocre players (rather than bad players which would be the case if a loss was 0).

and the positions are upside down due to an error of Richard, which he will fix I guess whenever he sees it in each infity tournament.

Thanks, HJjallti. Did the system automatically set up your second game in that Einstein Infinity tournament, or did you have to do it yourself? Most have finished two games, and I haven't even started a second.

I don't know if the System does it, or if Richard does it by hand at this moment. You don't have to do it anyway.

If a new cycle is due 'every 2 weeks' is stated somewhere, The games are set up. It is possible that with odd players one player would not have a game, but I already was match with 'SYSTEM' with plid=1 and no moves. I don't know how Richard will do that in the future.

Hmmm, I still don't understand what "points" is supposed to be:
http://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/in/tournament.jsp?trnid=einstein.in.DEFAULT1.3
I'd have thought that with 3 wins out of 3, I'd have 3 points, or at least I'd have more points than those who have lost a game. But I don't.

I wonder what is the point to play in an Infinity tournament if the rules are not clear. Perhaps this should be the first step in finding an answer for your questions :)

As a scientist, I will build a model based on the results from experiments. This requires me to perform the experiments!

Experiments without having an idea of the possible outcomes? It might blow up in your hand!

The point is to play a lot of matches in your favorite game without having to sign up all the time.

FatPhil, I think the simple explanation is that the current round is not accounted in the points and in the rank until ALL the games of the current round are over. This is probably due to the not-fixed pairings.

I'm amused that the only Infinity Go option is Toroidal.

NO BOUNDARIES

so? any conclusions??

I suspect Thnikkaman has got it about right -
"The point is to play a lot of matches in your favorite game without having to sign up all the time."
If the system works you'll be paired with players close to your strength.
The tournament table results are only shown to confuse you.
Have fun !

> The tournament table results are only shown to confuse you.

Working as designed

For the points in the table I have a fairly simple explanation: it are the points that are counted previous to setting up the new pairings, it is disregarding all results scored after the latest pairing made in the tournamen.

VSapristi: "If the system works you’ll be paired with players close to your strength. "

hex.in.DEFAULT.1
Art Duval 2222 Dustin 1596

I'm very glad to have a tournament delivering a steady diet of one game at a time (as opposed to the feast or famine of being in the Championship, with 8 games starting at once every few months), and I'm certainly not complaining. But I still don't understand how they work; I don't think it's pairings "close to your strength".

You missed the meaning of 'strenght':

it is seen as the points in the tournament: At first you are paired with any other player, everyone has 0 points.

Suppose there are 12 players: there will we just be 6 matches (randomly it seeems (it is not random really: in einstein I got paired with the same player in different tournaments to often, to be really random)
In 2 weeks there might be 2 games finished and 4 not. Ledaing to a
scoreboard in the tournament like 1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,-1,-1. It is quiet possible (not probable) that the 2 winners are 500 elo apart! The 2 players with 1 will be paired. The 8 zero's and all newcommers will be paired randomly and the 2 -1 should be paired.

After 10 rounds there will be the true meaning of 'strenght' as the best players should be on top by then.

OK, this is starting to make more sense now.

As near as I can tell there is no infinity tournament for Breakthrough. Is that correct?

There is the possibility to enter in one (with 9 players thusfar registered) and Richard seems to start them by hand now and then... I think reversi just started while it could have been done earlier.

I don't have the feeling that he made them automatic, nor for the start of a next round...

At the top of the tournament table is something like
"IR:10"
Does anyone know what "IR" stands for and/or what it is counting?

I did figure something else out: Every player has their current score in black; underneath is a score in gray, and I think that's the sum of points of opponents, a measure of "strength of schedule".

I did some changes in Infinite Tournaments. Infinite tournament is a special kind of swiss-system tournament . IMHO is better than some _ladder_ systems.

\* has no end
\* next round could be started without finished previous rounds
\* player can start later in tournament or leave tournament

Order of players is based on last _IR_ finished games (black number) and sum of points of opponents (gray number). _IR_ is important for pairing too. _IR_ is calculated from number of players (_IR_=2 x log~2~count).

Richard, thank you for explaining more how the tournament works. In the formula for IR, what does "count" stand for?

Also, I do see the many advantages of such a tournament, where players can enter (or exit) at different points, and each round is not held up by a single game (as in the championships). Plus, as I noted before, not all your games start at once, which will be less overwhelming for me, at least.

Count is number of players.

the sum of points of opponents, should contain points of all opponents, including the drop outs and SYSTEM. Now winning against SYSTEM which is in fact winning a 'bye' game, gives 1(0) points while winning a real game against someone with 0 points gives 1(-1) which is less while the effort is better. That is strange.

So IR for 8 players is 6?

Yes IR for 8 players is 6=2x(log_2 8)

As long as there are players in the tournament that I haven't played yet within the tournament, I won't play anyone twice, right?

I hope it's not that way, because that might be some one-sided games.

Also, I'm a bit worried that round 9 of the torodial go hasn't started yet.

@urmaul: Richard's most recent posts *suggest* (to me) that you may avoid repeats from only the last IR games. Sort of a rolling swiss system tournament.

@hjallti: I agree with your concern (on display right now in the Hex13 infinity tournament, still only in its first round).

Moreover leaving out points of dropouts it means that by deciding to leave a tournament as number 20; with 2 points, it is possible I actually decide how is first (because the leader might have played me and the runnerup not)

In round 6. of HAHN infinity tournament (http://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/in/tournament.jsp?trnid=go19.in.HAHN.6) at least two pairs are repeated from round 5 (Antoinecai - Lalca, . teofobo - Elisa Kabiljo)!

Are they rated?

Infinity = It never ends

I noticed that the point scoring has changed for infinity. Before, the players score was wins minus loses (wins were one point, loses were negative one) Now, the top score leader just depends on wins and loses do not figure into the score. Now it is 2 points for a win and zero for a loss, which is consistent with the website.

I also note the number in parenthesis has changed (no more negative numbers?) I still don't understand this number, how is it derived?

I think the second number is points won by all your opponents. Haven't checked again now though.

BTW, I like the new scoring. It't more motivating to collect points in the long run. (The vast majority of players will score close to 50%, which would have meant close to zero in the old method.)

I did like the fact that new players started 'in the middle' rather than 'down'. If a grandmaster shows up and starts to play he now has to face easy wins first.

The calculation of the number between parenthesis is not changed, but a side effect of the other scoring.

By the way this is not 'SON' were you only acquire points for victories, but the points of all your opponents. The reason this works here is that you never will have played them all in your last IR games. (if the tournament is big enough)

I still would like to see the people that signed out be represented as ghosts in some vague color or so. (but keeping the points for the tie breaking calculation) and auto-removal of people that loose on time (who might sign back in without problem)

One advantage of the new scoring system: There is no longer any incentive to prolong a game you are losing. Previously, if you waited until the next pairings were set, you could still be a little higher in the rankings, and also prevent your opponent from moving up in the rankings. Now, if you resign promptly, you are not penalized (your score does not go down); in fact you even get a small bonus, since your opponent's score will go up (thus also raising your parentheses number).

Rewarding fast play distorts things a little, but also encourages fast play, which reduces a different kind of distortion.

ps--Hjallti, how about an update on your strange forum game?! :)

I really like the infinity tournament. I'd love to have an overview page for my standings, for each game where I participate listing:

- position
- points
- points percentage

I still have trouble understanding the system.
Somebody can explain why JacekzkKrakowa has my same number of points despite having lost 3 times ?

Forgot the link to the tournament

http://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/in/tournament.jsp?trnid=shogi.in.SHOGI34.12

If you look at the little IR:7 at the top left, that means that only your last 7 rounds count.

You each have 6 wins (==12 points) in your last seven completed rounds.