Our dear Pope Jan Pawel II is dying :(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

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Yes, we have noticed. Television, radio, newspapers, websites have been reporting this fact for days. But I guess there's at least one person who only turns to little golem to get the news.

He'll be one of the many thousands of people who will die this night. But he's 84 and has had a full life. Unlike the little boy I know who turned 7 last week, and probably won't make it through the weekend.

I am an atheist and I find abagail's response appalling.

i agree with Paul, Abigail went to far. i am a liberal and more or less atheist, who has disagreed with many of the deeds and decisions of Jan Pawel II, but i would also mourn his death. and if someone mourns the death of a beloved person, there is no room to relativize his death by anyone else's, be that a seven year-old boy. life and death are uncomparable and unmeasurable.

I always thought going to Heaven was a good thing...

we will see cnn reporting from there

It has just been announced that the Pope has died. I am not a Roman Catholic, but I am a Christian, and I think this man's passing is a loss to the world and something to be mourned. He was, after all, a great moral leader, someone to be admired, and he will be missed by millions of people around the world.

The passing of a 7-year old boy is also very sad. I have friends who recently lost their 2-year old to a brain tumor. The death of a child is something that cannot be described. I doubt that the parents will ever overcome the feeling of anguish and loss.

Over :(

Well, he was suffering, and now he is in a better place. Are you sad for him or yourself?

well, i think that gregorio is right when he says that many people are sad with themselves. there are people that are sad because they think they lost a religious and moral (whatever that means) and others are sad because they will lose a "familiar" face.

being sad for the pope is ridiculous...isnt going to "heaven" something that a believer wants and wishes?

now, i dont think that is proper for people here to "attack" the opinions of someone who finds the death of the pope, not trivial, but something natural and "universal" and more if one opens a forum (a games forum?) it is common to get mixed reactions.

Moral, according to dictionary.com, means, "Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior."

I think that sums up the life of Pope John Paul II.

We should be happy for him that, as a good and faithful servant, he has gone to his reward. Those left behind mourn for themselves, not for the deceased.

"good" and "bad" is vey relative. for instance, the church agree that homosexuality is a mental pathology...but then punish it saying is "evil" (bad).

or how about the limited role of the woman in the church. i find that margination "bad" but the church find it reasonable (good).

thats just a few examples of the goodness and bad...history tells us of many "good" things but for me are horrible.

I'm neither catholic nor right wing. So I have not much to do with this. But one thing in his life was really remarkable. Citing the sense of the words of a German priest:

After this pope nobody can be any more a good catholic and a anti-semitic.

He was able to beg pardon for the crimes of the catholic church in Germany against jews in the darkest days of my people. And this out of an organization, which corrects in my lifetime the actions agaist Giordano Bruno, Galileo Galilei and René Dèscartes (some weeks ago the last). Don't know if he did the same for the Polish Catholic church - but probably he did.

Isn't the next Pope going to be the anti-christ,maybe that is why people are so sad.

What are u talkin about???

Nostradamus said if the pope were black, Apocalypse starts and than Aquarius age. Maybe u mean this.

I have actually read in the nespaper that that could become a possibillity when they elect the new pope......

i remember when john paul 2 was alive that protestants ministers in america said that he was the antichrist and that he was making deals with cocaine dealers in colombia.

it is funny because i heard and saw those same protestants ministers talking only "good things" for the pope...now that he is dead.

so i guess (in the context of protestants) that the next pope will be a pimp and anorexic...and yes, the antichrist.

THE BEGINNING: HEBREW ISRAELITES(BLACKS AFRICAN AMERICAN)

http://www.youtube.com/user/WoeUntoBlasphemites

http://www.isupk.org/Video/Gen-Mayak-makes-jewish-boy-cry.htm

The bible talks about "science" and worldy theories. The Scriptures says Satan will cause wonders and deceive the elect. Its unprofitable/ fake knowledge contrary to events dealing with the hebrews. But the point is true, since Israelites settled many parts of Africa, no one can, accurately, say which Africans ARE NOT Israelites. Revelations 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. Ezekiel 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R73OVE--_k0&feature=related

so i guess (in the context of protestants) that the next pope will be a pimp and anorexic...and yes, the antichrist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53bUGjGDGc4&feature=related

My encounter with this pope !

As a Catholic , American , French ( of Acadian ancestry),etc. I wanted to share my ten cents worth.

I read a NewsWorld article about the man. He made an impression in a photo

of John Paul looking directly into a 'rear view' mirror. The picture spoke a

thousand words. We must all examine ourselves. I found it amazing that he was

impacting me many weeks after his death.

Other things I recall... Like him or not - Our christian religion grew

from over 700 million to over 1.1 billion Catholics worldwide during his 20 +

years as a pope. Interesting that his travels took him all over the world.

Also, I have a post card of this pope where he pleads with America

to be a defender of life.

CHRIST our Hope

The one who has hope lives differently; the one who hopes has been granted

the gift of a new life.

I guess somehow this man , almost like my father

still lives on within me.

For you self-proclaimed 'atheists' ,

where do you go after this life of ours has

ended ?

I am always intersted to know.

where we go? where does your breath go when let it out? the atoms and molecules keep existing (for a while), and you are just dead. Like a motherboard with no power.

That's what atheism is, right? Avoiding the helpless invocation of 'a greater being and eternal life' because the human mind can't cope with the finality of dead. Occam's razor says the easiest explanation is normally correct, and the easiest explanation is that there is nothing super-natural, eternal or otherwise all-encompassing. Just nothing except of our daily life.

I understand that makes it difficult to accept the 'sense of life'. Why should there be a sense? Who said so? Making up the idea that there has to be something just because it can't be there is nothing, is just suppressing reality.

[Duh, now I outed myself... I'm gonna be a martyr for atheism]

Well, many of my protestant friends say that

the devil's biggest accomplishment is that

he has convinced people of this world that

he does not exist!

how does that song go , " yes there are two paths

you can go on ... there 's still time to change the road your

on.. "

But in the long run , we will all make one choice or the

other. And if you choose to make no choice , you still have made one.

"I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it." --Mark Twain

What do you believe happens and why do you believe it? Atheism is not a claim as to anything it is the none-acceptance of the claim that most major religions have about what god is.

There are SOME atheists who believe in reincarnation.

Maybe you should ask yourself why you are catholic, even IF I were willing to grant that a deity or deities exist, why be catholic? There are thousands of religions with angry jealous gods just waiting to torment you in you in the so called afterlife if you fail to acknowledge them or live life in the correct way.

The pope a defender of life? what about the pope telling those in AIDS ravaged Africa that condoms spread disease? When they help prevent the spread of disease used properly.

The current Pope reportedly called allegations of child abuse allegations petty gossip and was involved in a coverup of priests behaviour before becoming Pope!

I notice from the number of games you have lost you are capable of making errors in judgment, why isn't it possible that your believe in god is also an error in judgment?

If you are interested in an atheistic response to a lot of religious claims then check out www.ironchariots.org

nonsense

Your post doesn't make sense are you saying catholicism is nonsense?

Explain what you mean with a logical argument!

"I notice from the number of games you have lost you are capable of making errors in judgment, why isn't it possible that your believe in god is also an error in judgment?"

That sounds pretty offensive. And also true :)

Maybe little golem is not the proper place for this king of discussions. If we're to have a good fight over deities, let's answer this question:

-"If God exists, what is His favorite board game?"

(The answer is, of course, go)

Yes, off course. And what do you make of someone or something that chooses an inferior game like Go over the only true simple abstract game of Hex?

I'm not denigrating the gameplaying ability of the player, which as with all humans, with games of sufficient complexity is not infallible. Just I'm making the point that even if he would claim yahweh to be infallible, he wouldn't be able make the claim that he doesn't make errors in judgment. The losing of games seemed like the easiest way to I had to demonstrate human fallibility. Even the worlds best players make errors!

I wasn't going to even respond to this thread which was ironically resurrected after 5 years, which referenced the bible and youtube videos, as if they had any meaningful authority. Once it was responded to particularly in a way, which seemed to imply the common fallacy that atheists have to prove anything.

If someone claims a god exists they can start my saying what they mean by a god and why they believe it.

If you believe in the afterlife or heaven, then it is your burden to say why you believe that. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

What should a man believe if he came home after a year away and found his wife 8 months pregnant that the holy spirit came down and impregnated her or that she was unfaithful?

In all seriousness I suggest that religious and none-religious read the old and new testament or whichever religious text is most prevalent where you live, if you have the patience. Those believe it is divinely inspired should know it and not just the parts you were taught in sunday school. Those who don't believe can help advance discussions with theists to know what they mostly believe and most would claim as the source of their morality.

@paul gautherot see my response as to why I replied. Discussing religion isn't bad, but dragging up an old thread to spout the bible and link to youtube seemed uncalled for.

Well there is susposedly Caissa the god of chess.

http://www.isupk.org/Video/Gen-Mayak-makes-jewish-boy-cry.htm

http://www.isupk.org/Video/ISUPK-in-Puerto-Rico.htm

http://www.isupk.org/Video/Gen-Yahanna-hits-Chicago.htm

Why is there a God rather than no God at all? Kind of like the question, Why is there something rather than nothing? Leaving aside the "why," what we do know is that there is something. We have absolutely no evidence for God. -toddhisattva He always was, and is. He is the essence of the infinite. The reason man can even contemplate infinite is because God is there already. Your answer, although thoughtful, does not exactly answer the question as to the origin of matter. If I were to accept the answer to your question, the next question would be: Nothing cannot exist without something What did he create space-time out of? What material did he use to create space-time? Where did that material come from? Did it pre-exist with God? If it pre-existed with God was it created at the same time as God? If if was created earlier, how did the space-time precursor come to exist. Who created it if it existed prior to God? You could ask those same questions without the question of God: What created space-time? What material was used in the creation of space-time? Where did that material come from? Did it pre-exist the known elements and universe? If it pre-existed the universe, was it created at the same time as the universe? If if was created earlier, how did the space-time precursor come to exist. (Who created it if it existed prior to God?)---> If it existed prior to the universe (or multiverse as some now talk about -- but I reject) as precursor to the universe, what were its precursors, and how many "generations" of "stuff" were there prior to the universe? To what can we attribute the quality or state of existence?I understand that matter can be viewed like water: sometimes it is clouds and sometimes it is ocean. Sometimes matter is and sometimes it isn't. If matter can neither be created or destroyed, then there is neither more nor less than the original quantity. You ask, in essence, "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Or in a theistic context, "Why is there God rather than no God?" I cannot offer an answer to the question; it is beyond me. Although I do like the response I once heard: Nothing cannot exist without something (since not-being only makes sense in relation to being and vice versa), and thus both must exist. Perhaps language itself allows us to go no farther. I don't know. Which returns again to the fundamental question in either a theistic or materialistic framework: "How did God come to have the power to create our universe?" or "How did the universe come to be so that the physical laws within it permitted a "quantum fluxuation" I spoke of?" Introduction to Planning...We will treat any behavior as a motion. Thus, we will also treat any behavior generation as a motion control process. Actually, path planning is just a component of the more general paradigm in which the control of motion starts...God has all that data; He could know all there is to know about the next earthquake, even if the future is not yet formed. That quake will occur when the pressure exceeds the friction, and its intensity will be based on the degree of stress and distance of movement at that time. Is it so different with auto accidents? Could He not know when the woman at the stop sign would be inattentive, and would pull out into the intersection? Would He not also know that I would be entering the intersection from the cross street at that time? Could he not calculate the velocities and positions of both vehicles with pinpoint accuracy, define the points of impact, and predict the damage to the vehicles and the people? To say that God knows what will happen to me tomorrow, and how I will react to it, and how that reaction will affect others, is a small matter that does not even require that He be able to see the future, no more so than I need to be able to see the future to know that if I sit across the chess table from my friend David, he will beat me. As to the fulfillment of His plan in the earth, if He has so complete an understanding of all things, He need do very little to cause the chain of events He intends. In fact, it has been observed that given His complete knowledge of all that is or might be He could have started the universe at the beginning of all time in such a way that He need never intervene to bring it to where He wanted it to end--much as a pool shark can sink all the balls on the table with a single shot, knowing that if he hits that first ball just right, everything will move to everything else to clear the table. "Also, if God is omniscient, it must follow that free will cannot exist, how do you view this problem?" It always bothers me that, according to the laws as we understand them today, it takes a computing machine an infinite number of logical operations to figure out what goes on in no matter how tiny a region of space and no matter how tiny a region of time. How can all that be going on in that tiny space? Why should it take an infinite amount of logic to figure out what one tiny piece of space-time is going to do?

http://www.youtube.com/user/mashahba#p/u/95/Y0R6g60UH_A

http://www.youtube.com/user/mashahba#p/u/81/EvngFzqwvuc

http://www.youtube.com/user/144HEBREW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoRHM1MDqbY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53bUGjGDGc4&feature=related

http://www.isupk.org/Video/Gen-Yahanna-on-heaven-and-hell-is-on-earth-pt2.htm

http://www.youtube.com/user/AHMAWANBA#p/u/136/xj-0dlGRt5o

For it is here that we answer the age-old

question: "Can God make a rock so big that He can not pick it

up ?" And the answer is yes; that rock is the divinely created

human will.

When a woman is pregnant, is she making the baby grow? No, the baby grows by itself. And does the baby make itself grow? No, it grows spontaneously. Life happens, and we cannot take the credit for it. To water a plant and exposing it to sunlight, are true principles: we've observed that it grows and flowers in this way. Yet we are not doing the growing or the flowering, that would be taking the credit, claiming responsibility for the process of life which is not our doing at all. We are not making these flowers grow, not even if we are growing them! Life is not my responsibility. I cannot take the credit for being here, nor can I take the credit for my intelligence or my consciousness. Can anyone?

@ypercube

Look at a King James version of the bible.

Count how many times the word "go" is written in it.

Now count how many times the word "hex" is written in it.

See?

Go is the divine game, only a "d" away from God. (while if you add a "d" to hex, you get hexd, which is as far away from God as you can be.)

Then count how many times "weichi" is written in that book :)

lol.

I'm getting the impression that we got some trolls around here. Or maybe one only, with multiple accounts.

"When a woman is pregnant, is she making the baby grow? No, the baby grows by itself. And does the baby make itself grow? No, it grows spontaneously."

I knew it! Women always say that when they are pregnant they need to eat for two, but it's just a giant scam because the baby grows "spontaneously"!

Finally I ask myself this question... If it is said that God's love is infinite then why a hell?? to me there is a limit even for God.

There are many loopholes in all faiths and the answer I've always gotten when researched is the need for faith. No real answer just faith.

How can someone have faith with nothing to base it on but words? To me it is foolosh. I have faith in the brakes on my car that they will stop the car when needed. It was only after several uses and I could physically see that it became a faith.

Can God make a rock so big that He can not pick it

up ?" And the answer is yes; that rock is the divinely created

human will.

Actually, statistics tend to be the reverse. Religion is very common in social sciences, psychology etc. Physics, chemistry etc. have much lower rates of religion (and it has been this way for the past century at least). And among those scientists that have a religion, it tends to be a social function, not a core belief.

I think the important message here is not whether one should believe or disbelieve, but to make that decision for yourself. Essentially, I know plenty of intellecutals who lack perspective and dont believe in religion because that is what people who "think" do. Unfortunately, these people are just as bad as the die-hard evangalist's. Personally, I'm not interested in trying to save or covert anyone; however, if I can make someone think and use his/her brain, I will be satisfied. CHECK-MATE!!

Am always amazed at the ones who

continually respond to these threads.

It must be a little uncertainty.

Probably another doubting Thomas I suppose.

If Jesus appeared to you & had you touch the wounds in his hands

or feet you 'd still question.

Happy are we who have not seen but yet believe.

Love conquers all ( remember this). If you live in love

you live in the light. Without this, you shall live in

darkness.

{ i am not spouting on abt. the bible. i am making remarks about what i

individually have learned }.

Personally, I believe in the Father, the Son , & the Holy Spirit.

The spirit dwells in all of us.

The question here is 'which spirit dwells in you?'

I have no problem with people believing in God, Buddha, Superman, or the Cookie Monster. It's their belief, their life, and they are entitled to believe whatever they want.

What I really have a problem with is people who tell you that you are stupid because you don't believe in the existence of the fictional character they believe in.

Why can't we be left alone enjoying our stupidity?

I'm pretty sure the Cookie Monster doesn't play go, he's not smart enough. He's probably an hex player. And he scared the hell out of me, I couldn't stand watching sesame street because of him.

I'm enjoying my stupidity very much :)

The supreme arrogance of religious thinking: that a carbon-based bag of mostly water on a spec of iron-silicate dust around a boring dwarf star ... would look up at the sky and declare, 'It was all made so that I could exist!'

"A great error of the Church has always been its assumption of authority over the souls of men in all matters of faith and dogma; and the natural fruit of dogmatic authority has always been, and always will be, insincerity, hypocrisy, cant, and all their evil brood. Until that yoke is completely broken everywhere in Christendom, its results are bound to appear.â€*

--Professor Levi L. Paine

There can not, in the nature of the case, be any word in Scripture that means "endless time." "Time" is always connected with its cognate thought of "temporal" and "temporary." "Time" is always a relative term; "eternity," in any accurate sense, is always absolute. The difficulty is increased by popular speech. "Eternity" is used for time that does not end, but this is incorrect. If we are to have clearness of thought in this discussion and in the exposition of the Holy Scriptures, it is necessary to distinguish the absolute from the relative. In many instances the translators of the Bible have failed to do this, and most Bible teachers and theologians have also failed here. Even those who know and remark the difference, when it comes to the application of the same, largely neglect it. This is caused both by the bondage of usage and the difficulty to think clearly beyond the fallen temporal condition. In fact, if we desire to speak of eternity, so temporal is our condition that we may have to use expressions of time. For instance, we might say that there never will be "a time in eternity" when the creature will not be in full fellowship with God. But the term "time in eternity'' is incorrect, for there is no time in eternity, and yet if such a phrase was used, most would understand what would be meant. The failure properly to distinguish thoughts which are opposites has done immense damage to our right understanding of God and His Word.

The Bible is preeminently a book for time. When eternity, in its absolute sense, is reached we will not need the Bible, our blessed Chart which guided our bark through the great oceans of time. Time has a beginning and an end. Eternity is without bounds. Time has fallen out of eternity after the same manner as man; and this world is in a different state from that in which it was first created. The world has lost much of its spiritual condition. It has become gross, dense, material. It was originally of spiritual substance. Time is the state that is proper for such a fallen, divided and mixed condition. Time, as we have said, has as part of its meaning, "temporary." There is no such conception in the Bible (there may be in some of our translations) as "everlasting," or "eternal," in the sense of time. The very nature of the state called "time" is temporary. Whatever has a beginning must also have an end.

The word “torment†needs study. In the New Testament the same word is used of one “sick of the palsy, grievously tormented (Matt. 8:6). It is used of the disciples' ship in Galilee, and is translated “tossed with waves†(Matt. 14:24). It is translated by the word “toiling†in Mark 6:48. It is translated by the word “vexed'†in speaking of Lot (2Pet. 2:8). It is translated by a word that means “birth-pains†(Rev. 12:2). In the other Scriptures it is translated by the word “torment†or “tormented.†The original idea of the verb is “to put to the test by rubbing on a touchstone.†Then it means “to question by applying some test or torture to discover whether true or not.†The original idea was to test some metal that looked like gold to find whether it was real or not. It also signifies “to torture in order to extort a confession.†The meaning and usage of this word harmonizes with the idea of divine purification and the torment which is the test to find whether there has been any change or not in the sufferer. Through the hidden, loving purpose of God, every pang of torment will be a birth pang; and the grace of God will not be absent--and as He says, “Behold, I am making all things new†(literal). He will leave no spot in the whole universe unrenewed. “Every knee shall bow and every tongue . . . confess†(Phil. 2:10,11, literal). The ages of the ages come to an end. “Then cometh the end†(1Cor. 15:24-28). Time ceases and eternity begins. There will be no ''day and night'' in eternity. The suffering lasts only while there is “day and night†(Rev. 20:10).

There is another phrase that may throw further light upon this great theme and that is “the second death,†“in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.â€

Speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ, one objects and says, "But He was tempted and how could a person who was truly righteous and holy be tempted?"' It is true that He was tempted, but He never yielded to temptation. We need to have it written in our hearts, and realized in our experience, that temptation is not sin. The harboring and yielding to it are sins. Often the enemy says when we are tempted, "Now you have thought about a certain sin, you may as well do it." Say, "Get thee behind me, Satan, I will not yield one inch." It may not be possible at times to prevent thoughts of sin from being hurled into our mind, but we can refuse them, and we will become a stronger man or a stronger woman immediately. Temptation is not sin.

We know that God is good and we know that everything that God does is good; but the fact is, in this universe created by God, we find evil. We read in the Word of God that "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." How then could evil ever enter if God is good and if God made everything? It does not fully answer the question by saying, "An enemy hath done this," for then the natural question arises, "Who made the enemy?"

You stand before the Spanish Inquisition, tattered and worn. You have been accused of renouncing your Christian faith, and for that crime, you will be forced to endure the painful torture of the Heretics Fork. You are familiar with this torture, as you have seen others before you paraded through your village adorning the horrific device. Only now, it is your turn.

You can only abide in horror as the instrument, two prongs at either end, is securely fastened around your neck by a collar, ensuring it will remain in place. One end of the fork is jammed deeply into your sternum bone, causing excruciating pain, while the sharp tines opposite are pressed into the tender, fleshy underside of your chin. The pain is unimaginable, and you feel yourself growing faint as warm blood trickles down your neck onto your chest and shoulders.

Your Inquisitor demand you repeat “abuiro†– “I recantâ€, however the horrendous pain of the Heretics Fork does not allow free movement of your neck or jaw, making your ability to speak nearly impossible, and your voice is scarcely audible. Again and again it is demanded of you to recant and repent from your crime against Christianity, but alas, you are unable.

The die has been cast, and your fate is now sealed. You are labeled an impenitent heretic. Adorned in a fancy costume and paraded through town, you are led to the stake where you will be burned alive or hanged.

ref:

http://www.inquisitionchamber.com/quaestio/fork.htm

Based in Vatican City, the Holy Office of the Inquisition is still one of the most powerful branches of the Church hierarchy. In 1965, Pope Paul VI renamed the Inquisition as the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, but it was still basically the Inquisition.

ref:

http://www.youtube.com/user/WoeUntoBlasphemites

Turkey or chicken?......WOW!

God killed Himself to save us from Himself. weird...

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.