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yukiblue is a bot TWIXT PP

28 replies. Last post: 2021-09-27

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yukiblue is a bot
  • technolion at 2021-09-16

    Yukiblue seems to be a bot. Looks at the insane amount of games against TwixtBot:

    https://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/info/player_game_list.jsp?gtid=twixt&plid=140480

    I know lost 3 games against “it”. Just beware that its rating does not reflect its strength!

  • David J Bush ★ at 2021-09-16

    How do you conclude, from the facts you present, that yukiblue is a bot? He beat you three times. He also beat me once so far. Yes he is underrated. That does not mean he is a bot.

    Yukiblue is a Japanese player. A human being. I have seen his face and heard his voice in stream chat. He plays the bot a lot. A typical bot game he plays lasts a few hours. All these bot games are unrated. Playing lots of unrated games against Twixtbot can result in being stronger than your rating. You can call that insane if you wish. I suppose that means that you personally would not be willing to suffer so many losses. Neither would I. I would call it patience and dedication. He beat the bot once so far. IMO that deserves accolades, not accusation. He played in the recent online real time MSO tournament. He did not finish in the medals.

    You did not specifically say that yukiblue is a cheater, but you strongly implied it. I believe you should have done more research about the topic before you said what you said.

  • yukiblue at 2021-09-16

    I'm not bot.Bot is my best friend!

  • Enforce Aspiration of Vaccine at 2021-09-16

    year 2025,
    my prediction,
    when https://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/info/player.jsp?plid=140480 will have played more games than https://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/info/player.jsp?plid=4628

  • Enforce Aspiration of Vaccine at 2021-09-16

    year 2025,
    my prediction,
    when yukiblue will have played more games than technolion (was trying to link to variable names for a permanent reference!)

  • MisterCat at 2021-09-16

    ah, well … I had hoped to not get involved in this topic, but I guess I played a hand in it, a bit. I will, therefore, at risk of censure, put my 2 cents in. Note that I have been in touch with technolion privately about this matter.

    I must disagree with some of David's objections, and will offer my own analysis - and why I believe that yukiblue and others are using software.

    a. technolion did not use the word 'cheater', so it is unfair to assume that he was specifically making this accusation. However, he was offering a fair warning to the wise, and I agree with the warning. I warned him of this myself, just as I have warned other players here when I felt something was 'off'. This goes back to the days of the advent of the 'new' Twixtbot, since people were losing rating points right and left to a bot that was rated 1500 but was playing at the level of a 2600.

    b. While I know and acknowledge that the person using the name 'yukiblue' exists, from what I have observed, my SPECULATION is as follows: I believe that he, or friend of his, have been clever enough computer programmers to create their own Twixt playing software. This is NOT Twixtbot - though, it is interesting that Bony Jordan made the code for Twixtbot openly available - and now, we are seeing the advent of some extremely strong players coming from nowhere. Personally, I find it strange to observe a player rise from the ranks of a 1500 strength to that of a 2300 strength in a mater of weeks.

    c. As an observer of playing styles (and I have observed games using Twixt Commentator for many years now), I can recognize playing styles, to a certain extent. The new guys don't play in the style of the current Twixtbot. Instead, it appears that the software (if true) is using old techniques of 'brute force' that the old, weak Twixtbot used. The difference is that now, computer software operates much, MUCH faster. I would guess that new Twixt software would look considerably farther ahead, and could even be 'pruned' a bit to eliminate bad lines of play and analyze good lines better. The same thing happened with Chess software, which I have followed avidly - at first, brute force methods were used, and improved upon to reach ratings over 3000 (like Stockfish) - but then Alpha Zero comes along with the new technique of self teaching, self play of millions of games, and neural nets - and surpasses all the old software considerably. In the case of Twixt, the task of programming would be EASY to an experienced and reasonably skilled programmer - and now, armed with Alpha Zero techniques, Monte Carlo pruning, and extremely fast processing, it is not at all unreasonable to guess that new programs will start popping up. We never really had that problem before, since Twixt is a relatively obscure game - not known like Chess, Checkers, Go, Reversi, etc.

    d. WHY would people write software and 'cheat (sic)' their way to the top?? Well - there appears to be some sense of accomplishment and pride (false, as it may be) associated with this achievement. I'm sure Bony Jordan was delighted when his Twixtbot proved to be the Champion at Little Golem (admittedly, players like Maceij and Florian did not participate). Thus, with no money, no trophy, no fame, no accolades whatsoever - programmers can enjoy seeing their software succeed, since it is a personal 'feather in their cap'.

    e. I disagree with the statement that playing many games with Twixtbot will improve a player's strength; at least, not that much. Twixtbot's moves are strictly done by statistical analysis of millions of games - and human beings do not and can not have that capability. Again - I'll note that humans have studied the games of Alpha Zero (and Leela Zero) considerably, but the playing strength of the top players in the world has remained about the same - nowhere near the level of the software. The same is true of players who have played many games against Twixtbot - such as spd_iv and Sam Dakota - excellent players in their own right, who have not managed to figure out how to emulate the moves of the bot.

    f. My guess is that yukiblue's hundreds of games were tests of his software against Twixtbot, allowing him to analyze the losses and tweak it to get better and better. His software finally managed a win. With enough tries, any good player (Messieurs Bush and Hensel come to mind) with care and determination might, indeed, score a win.

    g. We note the disappearance of several top players, some quite recently. It is a FACT that some players absolutely refuse to play against software - the feeling is 'what is the point?' - even I am not all that keen on it. This is disturbing then, since with the Twixt takeover by software (or software assisted play from humans), it will change considerably the feeling and makeup of our little world, here.

    OK, so maybe you can blame me - regarding what 'research' technolion has done before his 'accusation'. But to conclude (ah, finally - at last!), the research HAS been done, and this is a free and open forum (until it starts getting censored, like, say, Twitter?). He has a right to express his opinion, as do I. Btw, I have my suspicions regarding several other players here, in that the strength they are playing at does not quite seem legitimate; however, I will not name names in this 'open' forum. I am too nice a feline! Only ONE specific player has been named here, and I think it would be up to him to respond. Sorry about the language barrier - I guess Google Translate would come in handy to change Japanese to English.

    (meow)

  • David J Bush ★ at 2021-09-16

    Personally, I find it strange to observe a player rise from the ranks of a 1500 strength to that of a 2300 strength in a mater of weeks.

    What specific player are you referring to?

    My guess is that yukiblue's hundreds of games were tests of his software against Twixtbot, allowing him to analyze the losses and tweak it to get better and better. His software finally managed a win.

    So you guess that yukiblue has been tweaking software until it finally beat Twixtbot. Have you noticed that, since this victory, continued tweaks have resulted in 10 consecutive losses?

    Can you point out any specific game demonstrating evidence of cheating by computer? Let's look at some actual data, shall we?

    Ir you aren't going to talk about facts, I would prefer you keep your guesses and speculation to yourself.

  • technolion at 2021-09-17

    David, I did not say that Yukiblue is a cheater. I just said, that he seems to be a bot.
    I don't think, there is a thing such as cheating on LG since it's not clearly defined what's allowed and what's not.

    I still think that there is software involved when yukiblue makes his/her/its moves. An easy way to have TwixtBot help you, would be to have two games ins parallel. One against your human opponent (Game A) and one against TwixtBot (Game B). You simply have to enter the exact moves of your human opponent from game A as your own moves in Game B and vice versa.
    That way you can act as a proxy for TwixtBot.

    That way you can even win against TwixtBot (play two games in parallel against TwixtBot).

    So, Yukiblue, maybe you want to explain, since you did not react to chat request within our games? If not, that's fine, too. If my thoughts are completely wrong, I apologize. But being as strongly underrated as you are, this raises suspicion.

  • Enforce Aspiration of Vaccine at 2021-09-17

    Maybe delete unrated games and replace with bot rating

    So

    All games are either played using “bot rating” or “human rating” only

  • David J Bush ★ at 2021-09-17

    David, I did not say that Yukiblue is a cheater. I just said, that he seems to be a bot.

    The title of the thread says that he is a bot. You are saying he uses a Twixt engine to make his moves. This is a serious accusation, regardless of what you call it.

    But being as strongly underrated as you are, this raises suspicion.

    Strongly underrated? He's 1891 and you are 2010. 119 points difference gives the lower rated player approximately a 35 percent chance of winning.

    You don't say which games you are talking about, so let's look at your three games against him.

    http://twixt-commentator.duckdns.org/game/2260050

    http://twixt-commentator.duckdns.org/game/2263826

    Both of the above were terrible games on your part. The only interesting game is

    http://twixt-commentator.duckdns.org/game/2267334

    Yes your opponent made a tricky move there. But you did make a weak move before that. What else have you got? Are you basing your accusation on this one game?

    There's something I feel I need to point out. yukiblue is not obliged to say a word. But he already did post here. He says he's not using a bot. What more do you want from him? You are the one making this accusation. You need to back up what you say with data. 119 ratings points difference is not statistically significant for one game.

    I regard this site as a sort of refuge from the stresses of everyday life. But reading this thread stresses me out a lot. I wish both you and Mr. Cat would consider the effect of your words. Show us something substantive or leave yukiblue alone.

  • mmKALLL at 2021-09-17

    Greetings everyone.

    Perhaps I can explain things and clear out the confusion a little bit. Yukiblue, smktzw, tamiflu, jurin, and a few other new players are part of a Japanese Twixt group I help run. I know all of them in person and have organized tournaments, Twixt lessons, etc together. I can attest with full confidence that yukiblue plays with equal or superior strength in over-the-board games as he does online - I win almost all our games on LG but have only once won against him offline. For reference, most of these players are 4 dan or stronger in Go - although Twixt is different I would expect them to pick it up faster than average.

    As to why you received no reply: most of our players are not proficient in English or used to communicating with it. I think it is unfair to expect them to provide a detailed explanation against arguments they don't fully comprehend. I never get a reply when asking about Connect6 from jinjinlkj or euhuang, but I have no idea what kind of possible cultural and language barriers there might be, and certainly would not accuse them of being bots. Although I think open and transparent discussion on potential issues is valuable, the title “yukiblue is a bot” is not likely to lead to a friendly response.

    As to why yukiblue has a lot of games against TwixtBot - it is because of a friendly competition we had to find who would beat TwixtBot the fastest. Right now myself, yukiblue, and tamiflu have all racked more than 100 games against TwixtBot, and have gained one win each. Since the games are unrated it is no surprise that all of us are far stronger than our rating would suggest. Although MisterCat disagrees, I think there is a lot to be gained from studying one's games against TwixtBot, just as there is much to gain from studying games played against human opponents.

    In response to another of MisterCat's points - I feel that while the top players' level in Go or Shogi has not improved significantly, the average online player's level is considerably higher than e.g. 10 years ago. Although this is largely due to improved teaching, part of it is also in thanks to advanced computer-assisted tooling. This is most evident in Backgammon, where many top players have implemented a number of nuanced strategies primarily uncovered by AI players and computer analysis.

    In short - it's not that we raised from 1500 to 2000+ in a matter of weeks, it's that already experienced Twixt players learned even more from playing against TwixtBot. Now that we are playing against people on LG, the difference between ability and rating can be jarring. I expect the ratings to catch up over time, as it would for any experienced player.

  • mmKALLL at 2021-09-17

    Slight correction: I only have 50 games against TwixtBot. It already feels like hundreds though. I admire yukiblue's patience and dedication in overcoming this challenge. :)

  • yukiblue at 2021-09-17

    First of all, I would like to apologize for creating a lot of confusion because I made a lot of games TwixtBot. I'm sorry.

    I am not a bot, and I have never played a game using software, although I am sure it has caused some confusion.
    I have played many games with TwixtBot, so I know you may think I am not human, but I invite TwixtBot all by myself, and I think and reply only with my own mind, without the help of software.

    I also recently participated in a TwixT tournament at MSO using my real name, yukihiro, and at MSO I played the game using BoardSpace.
    If I'm cheating using TwixtBot, I can't use that method in BoardSpace, because MSO has a time limit and time passes while TwixtBot makes 1move responses.
    I didn't win any medals in MSO, but I did win against CosimoC and mmKALLL. Both of them have higher rates than me in LG, 1900-2200.

    The reason I didn't reply to the chat with technolion is because mmKALL is right, I was not confident in my English. I am still using an automatic translation tool to reply to him. I didn't reply because I didn't know how to respond to the statement “Hey, bot” in English. The first time I played a game with you, I replied.

    https://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/game/game.jsp?gid=2260050&nmove=2

    I apologize for my behavior in the latest game, where I was approached and did not reply.

    Lastly, I love TwixT as much as you do.
    I can't blame you for the confusion I caused this time, and I know you may not agree with me, but I hope we can play again sometime.

  • technolion at 2021-09-17

    Thanks for your input, mmKALLL. That was very helpful. Certainly much more than your aggressiveness, David. If you feel stressed by a discussion about persons being bots on a game site, you definitely should get professional help.

    mmKALLL has explained it all, and it now makes sense to me. Still I don't regret starting this thread, only the title should be different. Unfortunately I cannot change it afterwards.

    Yukiblue, it would really be great, if you'd learn some English (it seems you are a fast learner) so communication would be possible. There is also some great translation software out there. I apologize for claiming you might be a bot or use bot software to make your moves. Keep up the strong gameplay. I'll try to play more games against you, so your rating will soon reflect your strength.

  • technolion at 2021-09-17

    説明ありがとうございます、ゆきひろ! 最後の投稿を書いた後、あなたの投稿を読みました。 虚偽の告発をお詫び申し上げます。 もっと面白いゲームを一緒にやってみましょう!

    Thank your for your explanation, yukihiro! I read your posting after I wrote my last one. Please accept my apologies for falsely accusing you. Let's try to have some more interesting games together!

  • yukiblue at 2021-09-17

    I am glad we have made peace.
    I spent a lot of time thinking about how one wrong move in the latest game and I could have lost. It was a very fun game.

    TwixT is a game that crosses language barriers, so it was nice to be able to play a game that crossed borders with you.
    However, my English is too poor, so I would like to study it….

  • technolion at 2021-09-17

    I am sure my Japanese is much worse than your English ;-) But thanks to online translators we can communicate. Isn't that great?

  • mmKALLL at 2021-09-17

    Technolion, although I'm happy about your gratitude and apology, I think your comment towards David was unacceptable and not called for. He did nothing wrong; only approached an unfair accusation with a pragmatic and evidence-oriented approach. He presented his view candidly and asked for further details, which I think is commendable given the difficult situation.

    I was quite stressed as well, given that I have to represent the opinion of the Japanese Twixt community. Given his recent involvement and invaluable assistance, my guess is he may have felt a similar way.

    Let's try to make friends and enjoy great games, instead of unnecessary comments that provide no value to anyone involved. Be nice and have fun. :)

  • MisterCat at 2021-09-17

    OK, I acknowledge that I owe an apology to yukiblue for my incorrect supposition. THANK YOU, to friend mmKALLL for all of the clarification! (we have spoken before). And SORRY about that, yukiblue!

    Actually, I'm delighted to hear about a growing Twixt clique in Japan. It would be great for this game to rise to the worldwide prominence it deserves.

    I have been in touch with technolion about all of this. If you noted my opening remark, I was reluctant to post - but did so because it seemed necessary to me. And - after all this, and after whatever discomfort may have occurred - perhaps some good has come out of it all. Yes, we all see where we stand and what's what - and perhaps further discussion on learning strategies with computer assistance might be explored.

    I'm writing on my cell phone now - so can't be as verbose as I am capable of. I'm sure all are grateful.
    (meow)

  • brzy at 2021-09-17

    I wonder why no one accuses me of being a bot.

  • Oakmoss at 2021-09-18

    I want to be a bot when I grow up.

  • Maurizio De Leo at 2021-09-18

    What I learned from this post is…..I want a study group in Singapore too :-D
    Happy playing to all.

  • Hairspring at 2021-09-25

    Despite all of the unnecessary angst in this thread, I am glad it occurred. It cleared up my own suspicions about a few of the Japanese players who I have watched play a lot of games against Twixtbot and have what seemed like outsized victories against higher ranked players. So, thanks technolion for starting the tread. You were not alone in your assumptions. I was never going to have the time to research my suspicions and has just accepted that I would have to put up with the absurdity of playing against bot assisted players. That would have reduced the enjoyment of playing TwixT, a game which I have loved since I was young (I still have my original 3M set). I will never put the time in to study the game by playing against Twixtbot the way these guys have, I have other things to do, but, good for them. They are playing strong games.

  • David J Bush ★ at 2021-09-25

    Starting a discussion thread is fine.

    Starting a discussion thread with a rude title is not so commendable.

    I'm not defending Yukiblue. I'm advocating polite behavior.

    Sorry if this stirs up bad feelings.

  • Hairspring at 2021-09-25

    I absolutely agree David, I just wanted to point out that the outcome wasn't so bad and that I appreciated someone else bringing it up instead of me. I wanted to put the bad feelings behind us, I like the TwixT community here on LG, even if I don't participate very actively in it. That's all I meant.

  • technolion at 2021-09-27

    So, thanks technolion for starting the tread. You were not alone in your assumptions.

    Thank you, Hairspring! When reviewing my lost games against underrated Japanese players who trained a lot against Twixtbot, I had to admit, that I lost mostly due to lack of concentration. So, most importantly: Don't pay attention to the rating of a player, he/she could be very strong!

  • Florian Jamain ★ at 2021-09-27

    I always said this “don't pay attention to the rating”, eveybody can be strong.

    Of course, in practice it's almost impossible to do, because on LG games take a lot of time, when you are against someone with a low rating you always have the hope that you can win without thinking too much.
    Usually you pay this behavior losing the game :D

  • mmKALLL at 2021-09-27

    Back in 2016 Florian shared some words of wisdom with me: “The first key to win many games, never underestimate anybody.”
    It is as true today as it was five years ago. :)

    https://littlegolem.net/jsp/game/game.jsp?gid=1775693&nmove=3

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