the championship Hex, Havannah
20 replies. Last post: 2003-06-05Reply to this topic Return to forum
Bill LeBoeuf ★ at 2003-05-22
Looks like the current championship is about to end.
I would like to propose that John Tromp and Ryan, both winners in League 3, be sent immediately to League 1 as they are both the very strongest of Hex players.
jjjklj at 2003-05-22
i have to agree with leb, the next championship wouldn't determine the true champion if ryan and john tromp weren't part of it
dj at 2003-05-22
Sorry guys, I beg to disagree. Mr Tromp's reputation is large, but he has only played 8 games here, and can hardly be thought of as at anywhere near the top of his game.
As for Ryan, well, I'm 3-1 against him. Granted all 3 wins were probably against him when it was late at night and he was drunk. But thats not important.
The point is that the system is how it is for a reason. I admit I am not sure how the system works, but that is probably because I haven't been in contention in the 'Tournament'.
So, I suggest we let those who want to be active here, earn their way past those that are. Else the site becomes elitist.
Semiseriously giggling about the implications and ramifications of your suggestions leb…….
jjjklj at 2003-05-23
well there you go…dj disagrees with us, therefore leb and i are obviously right…
Marius Halsor ★ at 2003-05-23
Let's look at who will be playing first league without this special “seeding”: David, Martin, Frode, Yper, LeBoeuf, Taral, Tray, Crelo and MirrorMan. Sounds like an awful strong field to me. Besides, If Ryan and Tromp really belong there (they probably do), then they'll win their respective 2nd leagues and get promoted anyway. With so many good HEX-players as we have here, and only 9 positions in first league, obviously some of the best player will be playing in 2nd league from time to time. After all, to stay in 1st league you have to be among the top 4-5 out of 9! If we really were to to something, I'd rather suggest expanding the 1st league to include more than 9 players, but honestly, I'm very happy with the way it works now - although I'll probably never get promoted to 1st league :-)
na_wspak at 2003-05-23
well in twixt championships there are 11 players in 1st league so why dont make the same in hex
Dvd Avins at 2003-05-23
Richard has said that anyone in the top 10 will be added to the top rung of the championship. I guess in Twixt PP he added an 11th, because there were 3 of us (including both radek and myself) who were almost tied for the 9th highest rating.
Ryan at 2003-05-23
Maybe I deserve to be in league one, maybe not. If anyone would dissagree with me skipping a league I'd rather not make anyone mad. For me to jumpo ahead someone would have to be knocked down, and I dont' wanna have to do that without beating them. If it could be made 11 instead of 9 that is ok, if no one would argue, but lets not kick out the other people who earned the spot.
David J Bush ★ at 2003-05-23
I just want to add that John Tromp might not want to play in the championship cycle. I hope he does, but he didn't realize he was signed up in the first place. He played his games out of a sense of obligation. John just might not like the slow pace here.
Door1 at 2003-05-25
In regards to the Championship. I would agree with dj for the simple reason that rule are rules. No exceptions should be made for anyone. If you don't like how the rules are, try to get them changed. I dislike this format for a championship because not everyone can play all the time. So If a good player drops out for awhile he gets dropped down to the last league. Monthly cup on the other hand seems to work more like a true championship with everyone that places first and second going on to another round and so on until the last group plays for the Monthly cup. This is where you can have a true champion if all those that are good would enter at the same time, if not limeted by how many can enter. I have not placed too much importance on the championship because not all continue to play till one takes the win over all leagues. Monthly Cup on the other hand shows who is the true champion in hex, David Bush. So if you want to go against everyone play Monthly Cup or change the rules in Chamionship.
My 3 cents worth, :)
dj at 2003-05-25
A possible solution might be to pit the winners of 2nd, and 3rd leagues against each other and the winner then plays the league 1 winner in a 2/3 or 3/5 series.
As it sits now, and as I think I understand it, the championship tourney is most similiar to the fight game. Heavyweights, thruy flyweights. Your ratings coming in determine which league your in. If there is no elimination, then the championship really is amongst only those folks that make it into league 1. Strikes me about the same as the question “Who is the best driver amongst the 10 richest people in the world”.
Dvd Avins at 2003-05-25
The way it is now is open to everyone, but when you enter you're really entering the championship for a few cycles down the road. You have to win the qualifying tournaments (the lower sections in the earlier cycles) first.
So if there are 4 levels in, say, Hex, and you enter ch.4.4.2, you're now contending for ch.7.1.1.
And if along the way you do well enough in ch.6.2.1 to hold your place but not to advance, then you have pre-qualified for some prelimiary rounds in contending for ch.8.1.1.
Niall at 2003-05-26
What's the time scale on all of this, I'd hate to die before I made it to the chamionship, that ultimately, I was really entering…
More likely is that I'll lose access to the internet or something annoying… But it sounds loooooong.
Marius Halsor ★ at 2003-05-26
I like to have both the championship and the monthly cup. The championship is very much like how sports are played around the world: There are several leagues, and the top players in a league one round advances to the next higher league next round, while the bottom players gets degraded to the next lower championship. I like this way of playing. Eventually, you'll get the top players concentrated in leage 1 and some in the top of league 2. Since the bottom of a league gets degraded, only the top 4 players can expect to stay in league 1 for round after round, while players 5-14 will alternate between league 1 and league 2. Isn't this a fair system? I like it, anyway :-)
ypercube at 2003-05-31
I totally agree with Marius. In other words “Who is this John Tromp?” Are you sure he's the same player as the one that was playing at playsite? And does he have the same strength? If Richard decides to put at the 1st league Ryan or Dj or anyone else that has stayed for some time at the top10 that's fine with me. Eventually players will reside at the level they deserve (at least if they have the time to spend on this site).
Taral at 2003-06-04
In the recent championships that have started Richard has given a 'wild card' to those players in the top ten rating list who are not already in the first league. Thus there are 11 players in the first league in Twixt and 15 players in the first league in Reversi. If the same rule is applied to the Hex championship, there will be about 12 players in the first league. I think that's too many.
Against strong opponents it is necessary to think carefully before almost every move, or else you will get an instant loss. So playing 11 games against strong opponents will take a lot of time.
I think it is better to accept that not all strong hex players can be in the first league at the same time, and fix the size of the league at nine.
dj at 2003-06-04
Lets limit league 1 to the top 5 players, period. Ask each player to rate his current game as of the start of tourney. If they say great, they advance. Any other 'iffy' reply gets them demoted to another league, where of course they can not win the championship. In the other leagues, ask the same question. Then ignore the answers. They cant win the championship either, so it doesn't realy matter.
Or we just conceed the championship to David, who is seemingly close to being at the top of his game. Of course Tray might have a problem with that, but Tray is young and will recover.
The point here being that 'If You Ain't In League 1, You Cant Win (IYAIL1YCW). So why bother?
I propose we find a way to incorporate the top 2 players from each league into a the final league which does offer the championship as the prize.
And no one is automatically seeded into the final league with the exception of the privious championship winner.
Bill LeBoeuf ★ at 2003-06-04
I guess I do agree with Marius as well. But who is John Tromp; he is one of the leading research mathematicians in his country and he competes in the Dutch national Go championships as well as being a pretty fair Hex player.
Andy Olsen at 2003-06-04
I think the way it works now is fine. If you want a tournament where you can go from nobody to the champion in a short amount of time, play the Montly Cup. You simply qualify by winning a section, and then win the winners tournament. This makes you the champion among all players for that month.
The championship tournament is a different animal, and it takes a long time to earn your way to the elite first league. This system works fine, the only real problem is that it's slow. If speed is an issue play on live servers. :-)
ypercube at 2003-06-05
My apologies to the real John Tromp if my post was offending in any way. What I meant was that anyone could have register at a server like this with any name one likes. Or can change his name -like I do all the time- to “John Tromp”. So the actual strength of everyone can be evaluated only by the games and the results one plays. And the John Tromp at this site has played limited games and not to very strong players. I guess that he is the real one and he will rise to the top of golem.
ypercube ( Pandelis Theodosiou )
P.S. And I am NOT John Tromp.