A big problem Reversi forum

33 replies. Last post: 2005-01-05

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A big problem
  • Claudio Signorini at 2004-05-13

    It is clear that some players use some software to play on this site. How can we solve this problem?
    Claudio

  • klaashaas at 2004-05-13

    Play 10x10 reversi:-)

    I don’t think there’s a(nother) suitable solution.

  • erwin vd berg at 2004-05-13

    i’m thinking to resign a few games on the reversi championship that i play.....or i play against the new world champions??

  • erwin vd berg at 2004-05-13

    matter in fact, if all my tournaments on this site are done, than i consider to play only “no” tournament games...

    Maybe there is a solution, no rated games???

  • klaashaas at 2004-05-13

    You won’t be the first one who refuses to play against cheaters, and hopefully not the last one either. But the Championship has nothing to do with ratings, to make it unrated is no solution. To me, the championship still is alot of fun. Just ignore (resign) the games against the (few) cheaters. I hope you will continue playing tourneys.

    Oh, before I forget it, my congratulations to go out to Tasmanian Devil for his performance in septembers monthly cup. Well done!

  • michael at 2004-05-13

    Someone should make a list of these “players” and share it (put it on your profile orso) so that i know which games i should resign first move...

  • michael at 2004-05-13

    Looking at the latest few monthly cups ... it looks spectacular :(

  • Tasmanian Devil at 2004-05-13

    It is nothing to mention klaashaas. When I realized it would be us three in the 3rd round I considered resigning both matches, but I also noticed that both the two others were rarely on at the time so I hoped I could win at least one game on time. That didn’t happen but I see that one of them now is losing games on time. ;-| As for my not too horrible disc count against “the Champ”, I think she deliberately gives away discs now and then as long as it doesn’t give away the win – one of her last moves was very stupid anyway.

  • Robin at 2004-05-13

    Do they know they are doing something they aren’t supposed to do? Maybe they simply don’t know.

  • klaashaas at 2004-05-13

    At least one of them does... And denies it.

  • agoui (limited edition) at 2004-05-13

    trust me Robin they know :( One of them has had an extensive conversation with me but I failed to make her understand. I have not played the other one but in the recent championship I sent him/her an “explanatory message” as to why I was resigning.....

  • agoui (limited edition) at 2004-05-13

    ...and I would be very interested to hear whatever comments the webmaster might have to say as these people are spoiling the most prestigious competition in reversi here.

  • Roel at 2004-05-13

    In the previous championship I was losing, but she gave away a very obvious win to make it a draw with only four empties left. None of the even moderately advanced players would do that.

  • erwin vd berg at 2004-05-13

    i know it has nothing to do with rating, but for winning the championship.
    what i really want to tell is that i won’t play anymore tournaments but just games, because there is no different in that! but than you’ve rating, and if there is a way to non-rated games, i really like that idea....

  • movieloverxxl at 2004-05-13

    I think most of the (better) players will resign against those cheaters. If I meet one of them, somehow, someway, I shall immediately resign (with telling the reason). But I fear the’re more cheaters than those (obvious) 2...


    And erwin: not playing rated games any more is not a solution for me: I enjoy trying to get in the top 10 (in a normal way) However learning from your games is far more important than ‘defending’ a rate here!

    SO: just ignore the cheaters, they shall disappear someday (and i want there rates also seen rebooted to 1500 :p)

    Ciao Tom

  • klaashaas at 2004-05-14

    ..and I would be very interested to hear whatever comments the webmaster might have to say as these people are spoiling the most prestigious competition in reversi here.

    ...any suggestions for him? I don’t think there’s anything in his power to do about this. He shouldn’t ban a player just because a few other players/members say he should. Agoui, just ignore those cheaters and go practise your 10x10 skills for a real prestigious competition! :-)

  • javerberg at 2004-05-14

    Would it not be possible to analyse the suspicious games with some strong computer program to see if they are played with more skill than any human reasonable can possess?

  • klaashaas at 2004-05-14

    Would it not be possible to analyse the suspicious games with some strong computer program to see if they are played with more skill than any human reasonable can possess?


    Yes, that is possible. And that’s exactly how all the other players recognise cheaters. The problem lies in reasonable. You need other players/members to judge about that. Should a webmaster (asuming he’s no reversi expert) ban/disqualify a player because other players/members say he/she is a cheater? Personally, I don’t think so. I’de rather see everyone resigning against cheaters, and play for the 2nd (or 3rd) place.

  • Nick Wedd at 2004-05-14

    You are describing people who use a program to select their move as “cheaters”. Technically, I think that this is wrong. The rules of this site allow people to use programs to help in their choice of move; at least, they did when I last asked. I assume it is like this because the admins do not want the task of identifying players who use computer assistance.

    When I have played Golem’s Word game here, I have used computer assistance. I have not used my program ‘gwg_robot’, but I have used a program which does a wildcarded lookup in the list of permitted words, and I have admitted this. I believe that some other GWG players use something similar. Probably many use a printed dictionary to help with their choice of word. It is difficult, at least with GWG, to decide what should be called “cheating” and what should be allowed.

    It might help to have some tournaments labelled as “computer assistance allowed” and some as “no computer assistance”. But cheating would still be possible, and hard to police. I really don’t know what can be done (except for switching to playing Go, where the world’s best program is only around 9k).

  • michael at 2004-05-14

    Ofcourse i use a dictionary in Golem’s word game, and i’ve admitted that too. I don’t think this is cheating, to me that’s the same as using a reversiboard or chessboard while playing, to analyse some moves yourself. It is something you can’t do while you are in a real life tournament, but this site allows it, there’s uberhaupt an extra board implemented for analysis in the game of chess...
    Using a program to do all your moves is nothing like that and is just plane stupid. And i think the best method to deal with it is like klaashaas sugests just to ignore them.

  • movieloverxxl at 2004-05-14

    What is the sence of using a program to play reversi (othello)? If they use it, they should pronounce it in there names. I could put on my Wzebra too and play against it myself, (so why would I play against CHEATERS on a site?) It ain’t fun knowing your opponent knows what to play the best.

    If you are evolving a program like Jan does, it’s reasonable te play against it. But Wzebra isn’t evolving at all (except when you are expanding your own book, but that’s using the program, not making it stronger)

    We have not the highest standard here, but a lot advanced players do play here (and it’s fun to check some variations against them :p). I hope the cheaters wil disappear soon here (coz' indeed, we can’t ban them :-()


    Tom

  • erwin vd berg at 2004-05-14

    a pillory is fun :-)

  • movieloverxxl at 2004-05-14

    this topic is a pillory ;-)
    shall we continue :D

  • erwin vd berg at 2004-05-15

    the first one on the pillory is tom!!!! :P (a)

  • jeroen de wael at 2004-05-17

    i think it’s very stupid to resign a game at move 10 or so because you make a mistake :s

    Look at the game between me and karla... this is really onsportive, and this error is not like she hadn’t had a chance... she only continues perfect games :/

    Sorry, if you love the game, you won’t do that, and you must love the game to make a progress of that amount, from 1600 to 2000 which we already talked about...

    The fun of the game to make those mistakes, and for example to win 55-9 with an x-sqaure (which i did some minutes ago).

    she even asked if i would accept a remise :/

    it was no missclick :/ (2nd game she made same opening)

  • beppi at 2004-05-17

    As I said in the other topic, I don’t think that resigning is a good choice against players whose only aim is to get a victory, without any merit. They have to be beaten with their same weapon, that is: WZebra. They want it, they got it. They want to win without merit, they will lose without merit. After some losses and after having lost their good position they’ll get bored and frustrated and stop. And we will be able to play our human errors one against each other!

    This is, at least, my position. By it looks like many other players prefer to resign. If this is the community’s choice, I’ll resign from the next tournament on. In the mean time, my only game in the championship will lead to a draw, hopefully (and probably) it won’t be decisive for the final result.

    Beppi.

  • Dom at 2004-05-18

    i think it’s important take same decision on this problem. If we have to resign, from next tournament we have all to resign against clear cheaters. Even if i think like beppi: resigning they’ll win the tournament, using zebra, maybe they don’t enjoy too many draw matches. Before of this, however, we can try speaking with cheaters hoping in a quickly repentance in their behaviour. In august monthly cup i won only because my opponent have resigned at last move a game in which i was losing 37-27. If everyone send a message to cheaters, he/she can’t ignore us forever...

  • leon kamphuis at 2004-05-30

    well the suggestion beppi made can be a good one too.. I cheated back against Karla but before the end I said she was a good cheater and that I didn’t wanted to win against persons like that and resigned.. mayb if we try hard enough we can make those ppl see they aren’t playing on the way like it’s supposed to be --> competitive and with the most important reason, FUN

  • mmbeer at 2004-05-30

    How about make a list with their names so everybody will know who they are?

  • jacob at 2004-12-04

    i think there is alot cheaters in site...that use cheat programs...i heard this site was a cheater haven ...im rated as 2000 on 7 other sites...and people rated 1600 and up .....they make me look like im new from this game...well some of them.....thats sad that people has to cheat to win...it take to fun right out of game

  • Tomoe Gozen at 2004-12-04

    Yeah, you surely are right, whenever you lose a game, it must be the cheater’s fault, never your own...

    But there is one thing I don’t understand. How come you can be so certain that this is a “cheater's paradise”, when you have finished only one game, and roughly half of your opponents are among the stronger ones?

    How about your experience with reversi10, where you have currently finished 10 moves (5 of which were played by your opponent); if your opponent is also cheating in that game, he or she must be thinking that it is a game of anti-reversi.

    hotlink_karla
    Bxf7+

  • michael at 2004-12-05

    Worth to mention also, that the only game he finished was vs marcel peperkamp, who happens to be 1 of the belgian team members for this years WOC. I really doubt he feels a need to cheat at othello.

    -michael

  • CloD at 2005-01-05

    back to the problem of identifying cheaters, there is still one idea: have good players proove their strength to their opponent with blitz games on Kurnik (or some other site that offers real-time Othello).

    CloD

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