5-way tie by 5 beginners! Einstein forum

23 replies. Last post: 2006-05-18

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5-way tie by 5 beginners!
  • Theo van der Storm at 2006-05-01

    Tournament table [ einstein.mc.2006.mar.1.72]

    einstein.mc.2006.mar.1.72

    Tournament:einstein.mc.2006.mar.1.72

    Start date:2006-03-13 13:08

    Finish date:2006-05-01 20:58NNameRating12345PointsSon1Marius Hals?r info1500(1598)00224162Eduard info1500(1371)22004163Trevor Green info1500(1549)20024164Matteo A. info1500(1531)02204165Yann V info1500(1564)0202416

    einstein.mc.2006.mar.1.72 - list of games

    GamePlayer 1Player 2ResultMoves#509183Yann VTrevor Green0 : 280#509184Trevor GreenEduard0 : 264#509185Matteo A.Trevor Green2 : 097#509186Trevor GreenMarius Hals?r2 : 073#509187EduardYann V0 : 278#509188Yann VMatteo A.2 : 069#509189Marius Hals?rYann V2 : 053#509190Matteo A.Eduard2 : 051#509191EduardMarius Hals?r2 : 069#509192Marius Hals?rMatteo A.2 : 063

  • Theo van der Storm at 2006-05-01

    Sorry about the blank space in the original posting.

    I think a 5-way tie is a very special result indeed!

  • Ingo Althofer at 2006-05-02

    Theo, you probably mean “5-way tie”

    by 5 participants, right? At least

    Marius Halsor has won already several

    EinStein tournaments.

    Greetings, Ingo.

  • Theo van der Storm at 2006-05-02

    Ingo,

    What you suggest is not what I meant.

    I meant they were beginners at the start of this particular tournament.

    Start date: 2006-03-13 13:08. Note: 5 x 1500.

    I agree “the Little Golems” have learned a lot,

    eventhough I see that the top 5 of the rating list

    are all experienced www.inetplay.de players :-)

    Player Rating

    Ingo Althofer 1748

    luiser 1743

    Jonny 1707

    Theo van der Storm 1682

    YHW 1668

    Kd Hoffmann 1646

    Andy Olsen 1637

    klaashaas 1625

    caronte 1620

    christopher 1612

    Best,

    Theo

    PS: No offence to “original Little Golem” people intended

    and I'm sure this is only a snapshot in time.

  • Marius Halsor at 2006-05-02

    No offence taken! :-) I must still be considered a beginner in this game. But just you wait - I'll learn. I'll get up to the top 5 - eventually…. ;-)

  • Ingo Althofer at 2006-05-02

    > Ingo,

    > What you suggest is not what I meant.

    > I meant they were beginners at the start

    > of this particular tournament.

    > Start date: 2006-03-13 13:08. Note: 5 x 1500.

    You are right. But this also shows the difference

    between LittleGolem and live servers: A single

    (best of 5) game can run over a long span of time;

    and a player who was a novice at the beginning of

    the game may be experienced when the game or

    tournament is over.

    By the way: I have thought about the possibility

    having a choice between normal and quick tournaments

    on LG. I see that most games are played quickly.

    On the other hand it is a bit a pity to see that

    ONE slow player can postpone completion of a

    whole tournament for months - all others “waiting

    only for him”.

    Has such a feature “quick tournaments” already been

    discussed somewhere on LG?

    Greetings, Ingo.

  • Gregorlo at 2006-05-02

    ingo, this feature has loooooong been discussed :)

  • Ingo Althofer at 2006-05-02

    Gregorio

    > ingo, this feature has loooooong been discussed :)

    Aha. That was also what my subconscience

    told me all the time…

    But it is not in the FAQ, when I read correctly.

    Maybe, this point is the Achilles heel

    of (all) servers for turnbased game play?!

    Ingo.

  • Andy Olsen at 2006-05-05

    I'd like to thank Richard and the random number generator. Richard for putting a game with a huge luck to skill ratio, and the RNG for giving me good rolls. Only this perfect combination of events could allow me to crack the top 10 list of an LG game. :-)

    Street soccer was ok, but I feel there is a higher skill/luck ratio there, and my dice rolls were not enough to overcome this. :-)

  • Hjallti at 2006-05-09

    The FAQ should be extended, but it would be best by a ntive English speaker rather then by me (the FAQ that is out now was written in the summer of 2003 or 2004 and sended to Richard as a gift :-) ) maybe someone could repeat this and make it much better :-)

    By the way it is FAQ and not FDR (Frequently demanded requests)… it just explains how the site works, not what people ask.

    There have a lot of discussions on the time management and it seems though many are open to options most would like are happy with the 240/+36 rule as the standard (maybe championships and MC should stay like this, and RT could have different speeds: Fast RT's and regular RT's)

  • Jonny at 2006-05-09

    einstein.mc.2006.apr.1.104

    “5-way tie” by 5 participants too ;-)))

    Is that often? I dont know

  • Ingo Althofer at 2006-05-09

    Jonny wrote:

    > “5-way tie” by 5 participants too ;-)))

    > Is that often? I dont know

    When you have a 5-player round-robin, all

    players of the same strength, and no advantage

    of moving first in a game, then the chance of a

    5-way tie is exactly 3/128, which is approximately

    2,34 percent.

    Ingo.

  • Marius Halsor at 2006-05-09

    It seems to me it the chance is only 1/64. Did I calculate wrong? Are you sure about your numbers, Ingo?

  • Ingo Althofer at 2006-05-09

    On 31/128:

    There are 1024 different outcomes.

    The results in the first row may be “x 1 1 0 0”

    or one of the other 5 arrangements.

    When the first row is indeed “x 1 1 0 0”,

    the second row may be either

    (a) “0 x 1 1 0”

    or

    (b) “0 x 1 0 1”

    or

    (c) “0 x 0 1 1”

    In cases (a) and (b) all remaining results are fixed.

    In case (c) the lowest three players have 2 different

    cycles for the internal “win direction”.

    So, altogether there are 6 * (1 + 1 + 2) way to get a

    5-way-tie. 24/1024 = 3 / 128.

    Ingo.

    By the way, it seems that different playing strengths will

    only result in smaller probability for a five-way-tie.

  • Marius Halsor at 2006-05-09

    Thanks. I now found the missing 8 ways this can happen. One should think that when working only with 0 and 1, it would be easy to tell them apart, but then again… :-)

  • Jonny at 2006-05-10

    thanks a lot. That is not realy often. ;-))

  • Ingo Althofer at 2006-05-10

    One interesting thing is:

    When we would NOT have ratings on LG, and when

    the mixture of participants in tournaments would

    be random, then the freqency of 5-way-ties (and

    also the frequency of lower-ranked ties) would

    be an indication for the spreading of playing

    strengths:

    “the more 5-way-ties, the more similar

    would the playing strengths be.”

    Ingo Althofer.

  • Ingo Althofer at 2006-05-18

    SOme of my second-year students in Jena were so kind

    to compute the number of 7-way-ties for 7-player

    tournaments:

    there are 2640 cases out of the 2-to-the-21.

    So the quota is about 0,126 percent.

    Open questions:

    (i) exact number for 9-way-ties with 9 players

    (should be computable exactly)

    (ii) Monte-Carlo approximations for (2n+1)-ties

    with (2n+1) players, n=5,6,7,8,…

    Thanks in advance for all constructive feedback.

    Ingo.

  • ypercube ★ at 2006-05-18

    what about 6-way ties?

  • Robin at 2006-05-18

    Do you mean a 6-way tie in a 7-player tournament?

  • ypercube ★ at 2006-05-18

    I meant 6-way tie in 6-player tournament. On second thought this is impossible in games like Einstein where there is no draw. No 4-way ties in 4-player tournaments either.

  • Stephen Silver at 2006-05-18

    Ingo: This is sequence A007079 in Sloane's encyclopedia: 1, 2, 24, 2640, 3230080, 48251508480, 9307700611292160, 24061983498249428379648, 855847205541481495117975879680, …

  • Ingo Althofer at 2006-05-18

    > This is sequence A007079 in Sloane's encyclopedia:

    > 1, 2, 24, 2640, 3230080, 48251508480, 9307700611292160,

    > 24061983498249428379648, 855847205541481495117975879680, …

    Thanks, Stephen!

    Ingo.

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