BlitzStein Einstein forum

49 replies. Last post: 2012-07-10

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BlitzStein
  • kfiecio at 2012-04-20

    I wanted to initiate this series of monthly tournaments earlier but there was the turbo einstain series running so I decided not to do it at the time. Now we no longer have turbo eistain, but I feel we need some fast tournaments dou to slow Diamante play. The tournaments from the midle of last year of Go ahead! series are still running. But in BlitzStein even with Diamante playing a stage should not take much longer than a month :).

    If there will be a lot of intrest in this tournament I think I can set up 2 every month at 1st and 15th, as the game usualy last no longer than 20 moves. Or will it be to much?

  • opmp at 2012-04-20

    I would like a fast play too. One Point games we kann play in 10 minutes, if we were online and want.

    So i´m in. :---))

  • OneStone_c at 2012-04-20

    OneBot is mainly sitting around doing nothing these days. If you’d like a bot playing, let me know. 10 secs/move. :)

  • MarleysGhost at 2012-04-20

    Is there a good way for a bot to be quickly responsive while minimizing stress on the server? Polling with exponential backoff?

  • OneStone_c at 2012-04-20

    It’s not my code, so Klaashaas might want to correct me here, but I think OneStone (not OneBot ...) polls every 30 seconds so I don’t think that’s too much of a drag. Or is it? MG, I like your idea of diminishing polling, but maybe the demand on the server is already light the way it is?

  • klaashaas at 2012-04-24

    You’re right, OneStone_c.

    I thought about exponential backoff, but a few ms of the servers time every 30s doesn’t sound too much to ask from the server.

  • Jonny at 2012-05-08

    im interestedd in a rated 50-points-game (fast playing game. time for playing the hole game 240 h maximum) Are there more player for this? If yes, may be we can kreate one

  • Rafael Marques at 2012-05-09

    I would also be interested in a 50-points-game. :)

  • Nagy Fathy ★ at 2012-05-09

    I’d love to join this 50-points-game event!

  • OneStone_c at 2012-05-09

    I’m still mainly just sitting around so if you’re looking for more players just let me know.

  • Jonny at 2012-05-09

    Richard is absolutly great, thanks for implementing

    Lets play!!!

  • Jonny at 2012-05-09

    If someone want a 50-points-game please let me know

  • FatPhil at 2012-05-09

    RoRoRo’s well up for it – he never gets fatigued.

  • Jonny at 2012-05-09

    My aim is to have 10 games with different player. 2 i have now...

  • Jonny at 2012-05-09

    5

  • Jonny at 2012-05-10

    three bots and three human player, someone else?

  • YHW at 2012-05-10

    If everyone would invite the others we could play a 50-points-tournament with John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, RoRo, Nagy Faty as well as OneStone_c.

  • FatPhil at 2012-05-10

    YHW -please reinvite RoRoRo – he didn’t know what a 50-points game was

  • FatPhil at 2012-05-10

    Oh, that goes to the other too – I’ve only just checked his logs.

    Thanks Jonny for reporting the failure!

  • Jonny at 2012-05-10

    you are welcome...

    i create a 50-points tournament just register on game side

  • Jonny at 2012-05-10

    oh sorry i cant, im not a member

  • YHW at 2012-05-10

    So, Nagy Fathy, Jonny, YHW, OneStone_c, RoRoRo the Bot as well as John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor are now playing a 50-points-match against each other except of OneStone vs. RoRo. It would be great if RoRo would also invite OneStone, we would have the first 50-points-match tournament ever.
    The child is with you, but the program has currently 74 open games and is moving pretty slow. That’s why I want to use the ‘One_minute_c’ account for playing against RoRo and OneStone, these are the games with the numbers #1446520 and #1446663.
    That’s a good thing to estimate the current strength of human vs. bots, I’ll create a new topic here, to publish the current results.

  • Nagy Fathy ★ at 2012-05-10

    here are my games:
    #1446477 naive_child_c
    #1446430 Jonny
    #1446671 John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor
    #1446478 YHW
    #1446684 OneStone_c
    #1446683 RoRoRo the Bot

  • YHW at 2012-05-10

    These are all the games:

    #1446430, Jonny vs. Nagy Fathy, Current Score: 6 / 6
    #1446431, Jonny vs. OneStone_c, Current Score: 20 / 18
    #1446442, Jonny vs. John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, Current Score: 4 / 2
    #1446443, Jonny vs. YHW, Current Score: 6 / 6
    #1446444, naive_child_c vs. Jonny, Current Score: 0 / 1
    #1446477, Nagy Fathy vs. naive_child_c, Current Score: 0 / 2
    #1446478, YHW vs. Nagy Fathy, Current Score: 11 / 5
    #1446479, YHW vs. OneStone_c, Current Score: 18 / 17
    #1446482, naive_child_c vs. John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, Current Score: 1 / 0
    #1446483, YHW vs. John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, Current Score: 3 / 3
    #1446520, One_minute_c vs. OneStone_c, Current Score: 12 / 6
    #1446553, Jonny vs. RoRoRo the Bot, Current Score: 13 / 17
    #1446568, OneStone_c vs. John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, Current Score: 1 / 9
    #1446640, YHW vs. RoRoRo the Bot, Current Score: 12 / 13
    #1446663, One_minute_c vs. RoRoRo the Bot, Current Score: 2 / 2
    #1446671, Nagy Fathy vs. John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, Current Score: 0 / 1
    #1446672, RoRoRo the Bot vs. John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, Current Score: 7 / 3
    #1446683, Nagy Fathy vs. RoRoRo the Bot, Current Score: 1 / 10
    #1446684, Nagy Fathy vs. OneStone_c, Current Score: 4 / 5
    #1446708, One_minute_c vs. YHW, Current Score: 1 / 0

    It still lacks on a game OneStone_c vs. RoRoRo the Bot

  • Jonny at 2012-05-11

    someone can create a user tournament... but may be in the time after finishing these first “big” games

  • YHW at 2012-05-11

    Great, RoRo invited OneStone and RoRo already won it. That correlates with the current results human vs. bots. RoRo is ahead against all human players, but all human players (except of Nagy Fathy) are playing better than OneStone. Here’s a snapshot:

    #1446430, Jonny vs. Nagy Fathy, Current Score: 6 / 8
    #1446431, Jonny vs. OneStone_c, Current Score: 30 / 26
    #1446442, Jonny vs. John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, Current Score: 5 / 4
    #1446443, Jonny vs. YHW, Current Score: 8 / 6
    #1446444, naive_child_c vs. Jonny, Current Score: 0 / 2
    #1446477, Nagy Fathy vs. naive_child_c, Current Score: 0 / 2
    #1446478, YHW vs. Nagy Fathy, Current Score: 12 / 6
    #1446479, YHW vs. OneStone_c, Current Score: 29 / 25
    #1446482, naive_child_c vs. John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, Current Score: 1 / 0
    #1446483, YHW vs. John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, Current Score: 4 / 4
    #1446520, One_minute_c vs. OneStone_c, Current Score: 19 / 17
    #1446553, Jonny vs. RoRoRo the Bot, Current Score: 27 / 32
    #1446568, OneStone_c vs. John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, Current Score: 4 / 13
    #1446640, YHW vs. RoRoRo the Bot, Current Score: 20 / 27
    #1446663, One_minute_c vs. RoRoRo the Bot, Current Score: 10 / 12
    #1446671, Nagy Fathy vs. John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, Current Score: 1 / 2
    #1446672, RoRoRo the Bot vs. John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, Current Score: 12 / 7
    #1446683, Nagy Fathy vs. RoRoRo the Bot, Current Score: 5 / 18
    #1446684, Nagy Fathy vs. OneStone_c, Current Score: 6 / 10
    #1446708, One_minute_c vs. YHW, Current Score: 4 / 2
    #144671, OneStone_c vs. RoRoRo the Bot, Current Score: 34 / 50

    Sorry, that the child is currently playing so slow, without the child, these are the current averaged of the individual players against the others:

    Jonny 51,0%
    Nagy Fathy 36,6%
    YHW 51,2%
    John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor 54,9%
    naive_child_c
    OneStone_c 43,8%
    RoRoRo the Bot 62,5%

  • Nagy Fathy ★ at 2012-05-11

    hmm, I know that i have no chance in this tourny, I just wanted to have the honor of being in such big event :)

  • OneStone_c at 2012-05-11

    Indeed, RoRoRo beat OneStone by a comfortable margin. I started up another 50 game match and if the result is similar I might be convinced that RoRoRo is really playing better. In which case I may be forced to think about tweaking the code a little.

  • YHW at 2012-05-11

    That’s not a statistical effect. The child played with different versions all the time (thousands of single games) against both but RoRo was always better than OneStone_c. OneStone is also playing worse since you said that the thinking time is reduced.

  • Ingo Althofer at 2012-05-11

    Hello Richard,

    > In which case I may be forced to think about tweaking the code a little.

    Do not tweak it to soon. Just this afternoon I had a working meeting
    with Wesley Turner, and one of our points of discussion was to find out
    about the strengths of the Tilburg bots in long matches.

    By the way: 34-50 (in 84 games) does not mean superiority
    by a statistically relevant margin.

    Ingo.

  • YHW at 2012-05-11

    84 single games are a bit less than eight 7-point-matches. In a series of eight 7-point-matches the current child version wins sometimes up to 22 single score points more against/than OneStone_c (best result: 55 – 23), sometimes it loses up to 33 points (worst result: 23 – 56). That’s a variation/difference of 55 single score points!
    Same for naive_child_c vs. RoRoRo, best series: 56 – 35 (+21), worst result: 30 – 56 (-26)! 84 single matches are nothing!

  • Jonny at 2012-05-12

    If someone want rated 50-points game... look on the tournament side

  • FatPhil at 2012-05-12

    Looking at the blitz tournament, there seemed to be a p2 advantage. (10 matches were complete, 9 were won by p2)

    If that’s the case, then playing immediately after your opponent’s won a frame is a disadvantage, so there would be an increased run of frame wins, and perhaps that would skew the final score distribution noticeably?

    Is it the case, has someone done some datamining?

  • YHW at 2012-05-13

    I think that p1 is advantaged.
    Here are all played games (all 1-, 3-, 5-, 7-point matches) of the best 84 players I know analyzed on a possibly advantage for p1 or p2, find it here below the image as download file on that PAGE, the name of the file is ‘1st_2nd_move_distribution’.
    ‘1st move’ means p1, ‘2nd move’ p2.

  • YHW at 2012-05-13

    The total number of analyzed games is 31003 in which these players started the game, 18616 were won 0> 59.2%.
    31098 games in which they had the 2nd move, 18240 were won => 57.9%.
    There is a difference of 1.3% but more than 12000 games were just played by Diamante. => Better estimation => The averaged winning ratio of the players if they started is 59.6%, 58.2% if they had the 2nd move. => A difference in performance of 1,44% in a mixture of 1-, 3-, 5- as well as 7-point matches.

  • YHW at 2012-05-14

    John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, Jonny and me played many games against RoRo, I have all results on my PC, I counted all single games, calculated all winning ratios and the standard deviation of our performance and I must say that we all should have a minor chance only to win against RoRo with respect to the past games.
    The interesting thing is that Jonny hit exactly his expected result against RoRo: 43 – 50 while all results between 50 – 46 and 34 – 50 would be in the range of 3 x standard deviation (99.7%) of the past games. I reached also exactly the expected value against OneStone_c: 43 : 50 ..fu****** statistics ! ;)
    The expected results are shown below if I got all results of the past games of the individual players, this is the current standing:

    #1446430, Jonny vs. Nagy Fathy, Current Score: 6 / 9
    #1446431, Jonny vs. OneStone_c, Current Score: 50 / 40
    #1446442, Jonny vs. John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, Current Score: 7 / 5
    #1446443, Jonny vs. YHW, Current Score: 11 / 10, Expected: 44 – 50, Best (within 3 x SD): 50 – 41, Worst (within 3 x SD): 32 – 50
    #1446444, naive_child_c vs. Jonny, Current Score: 5 / 7, Expected: 50 – 42, Best (within 3 x SD): 50 – 31, Worst (within 3 x SD): 44 – 50
    #1446477, Nagy Fathy vs. naive_child_c, Current Score: 0 / 4
    #1446478, YHW vs. Nagy Fathy, Current Score: 12 / 6, Nagy Fathy RESIGNED
    #1446479, YHW vs. OneStone_c, Current Score: 43 / 50, Expected: 39 – 50, Best (within 3 x SD): 50 – 44, Worst (within 3 x SD): 39 – 50
    #1446482, naive_child_c vs. John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, Current Score: 5 / 1
    #1446483, YHW vs. John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, Current Score: 5 / 9, Expected: 46 – 50, Best (within 3 x SD): 50 – 39, Worst (within 3 x SD): 34 – 50
    #1446520, One_minute_c vs. OneStone_c, Current Score: 43 / 46, Expected: 46 – 50, Best (within 3 x SD): 50 – 49, Worst (within 3 x SD): 42 – 50
    #1446553, Jonny vs. RoRoRo the Bot, Current Score: 43 / 50, Expected: 43 – 50, Best (within 3 x SD): 50 – 46, Worst (within 3 x SD): 34 – 50
    #1446568, OneStone_c vs. John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, Current Score: 14 / 26, Expected: 50 – 48, Best (within 3 x SD): 50 – 25, Worst (within 3 x SD): 28 – 50
    #1446640, YHW vs. RoRoRo the Bot, Current Score: 42 / 47, Expected: 41 – 50, Best (within 3 x SD): 50 – 49, Worst (within 3 x SD): 33 – 50
    #1446663, One_minute_c vs. RoRoRo the Bot, Current Score: 39 / 42, Expected: 44 – 50, Best (within 3 x SD): 49 – 50, Worst (within 3 x SD): 40 – 50
    #1446671, Nagy Fathy vs. John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, Current Score: 1 / 3
    #1446672, RoRoRo the Bot vs. John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor, Current Score: 21 / 20, Expected: 50 – 41, Best (within 3 x SD): 50 – 33, Worst (within 3 x SD): 48 – 50
    #1446683, Nagy Fathy vs. RoRoRo the Bot, Current Score: 11 / 26
    #1446684, Nagy Fathy vs. OneStone_c, Current Score: 8 / 20
    #1446708, One_minute_c vs. YHW, Current Score: 11 / 8, Expected: 50 – 48, Best (within 3 x SD): 50 – 37, Worst (within 3 x SD): 40 – 50
    #144671, OneStone_c vs. RoRoRo the Bot, Current Score: 34 / 50

    Unfortunately, Nagy Faths resigned the game against me – due to a mistake he said – so, my performance against him is fixed. I don’t know if that’s an advantage for me at the moment, since the performance of naive_child_c is 100% against him (4 games played only) or
    I would say OneStone_c was playing below his ability – or the current version plays worse in comparison to an earlier one.

  • kfiecio at 2012-05-15

    I set up a new BlitzStein tournament. And I have created a 50-pointt game tournament. For those who want to play fast. Msg me for password only if you want to play fast games. There is also a new Go ahead! tournament

  • YHW at 2012-05-15

    I hope you know what a 50-points-match means. It could be that more than 1600 single moves are made. If 2 players from different continents or with a different online/active time are playing against each other, and each would only be able to do one single move per day (because the other is not on) that the tourament will last more than 2 years.
    I still have an open game against diamante started in march in which are only 66 moves are made => 33 moves per month => more than 4 years to finish a single 50-points-match! How do you want to be sue that a player or 2 players would be able to finish the game in an acceptable time or do you want to have an ‘everlasting tournament’? ;-)

  • FatPhil at 2012-05-15

    The monster lasts 2 years too, so it’s not unprecedented.

    Perhaps the rider should read "only if you want to play fast games, and intend to access the site to play games for most of your waking hours.

    I wish the site didn’t just list the number of games in play, but also the number where the player is on move. That information is available for each individual game someone plays, so it’s not secret at all.

    @kfiecio – RoRoRo doesn’t know how to sign up to private UTs yet. He can sign up to open ones – just send him a correctly formed message (subject “join ut ###” with the appropriate numeric id). I’ll add the password feature tonight or tomorrow. He would like to play in both of the forwards-only tournaments, if you’ll take him.

  • YHW at 2012-05-16

    Here are some more explicit stats with respect to a red/blue (or player 1/player 2) and the activity of the EWN players in general:

    Ratio of games won by the starting player (P1) to the total of all played games for the different EWN-variants:

    1-point-game: P1:2258, P2: 1996 = 53,08%
    3-points-match: P1:27395, P2: 26613 = 50,72%
    5-points-match: P1:330, P2: 330 = 50%
    7-points-match: P1:1741, P2: 1721 = 50,29%
    11-points-match: P1:1, P2: 0 = 100%
    19-points-match: P1:0, P2: 1 = 0%
    50-points-match: P1:5, P2: 7 = 41,67%
    Black Hole: P1:573, P2: 539 = 51,53%
    Backwards Capture: P1:983, P2: 1065 = 48%

    65558 finished games analyzed (all games of the best 208 LG-accounts listed)

    Activity:

    154 of these 208 players finished their last game in 2012 <=> 74,04%
    28 players finished their last game in 2011 <=> 13,46%
    5 players finished their last game in 2010 <=> 2,4%
    10 players finished their last game in 2009 <=> 4,81%
    4 players finished their last game in 2008 <=> 1,92%
    7 players finished their last game in 2007 <=> 3,37%
    0 players finished their last game in 2006 <=> 0%

    The top 208 listed EWN players are currently playing 809 games. 97 are active (at least one open game) <=> 46,63%

  • FatPhil at 2012-05-29

    Is there a score table for this unofficial 50-point tournament. I think RoRoRo’s matches are all over, but haven’t checked the others yet.

  • YHW at 2012-05-29

    This is the current standing:

    47/5046/50
    OneStone_c40/5050/2050/4345/5050/47-34/50
    RoRoRo the Bot50/4350/2550/4750/4750/4650/34-
    PerformanceJonnyNagy FathyYHWJohn-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregornaive_child_cOneStone_cRoRoRo the BotMean PerformanceAgainst (other) botsAgainst (other) humans
    Jonny-43,8%50%58,3%48,4%55,6%46,2%50,4%50,1%50,7%
    Nagy Fathy56,3%-33,3%50%41,2%28,6%33,3%40,4%34,4%46,5%
    YHW50%66,7%-41,7%51,7%46,2%48,5%50,8%48,8%52,8%
    John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor41,7%50%58,3%-33,3%52,6%48,5%47,4%44,8%50%
    naive_child_c51,6%58,8%48,3%66,7%-48,5%47,9%53,6%48,2%56,3%
    OneStone_c44,4%71,4%53,8%47,4%51,5%-40,5%51,5%46%54,3%
    RoRoRo the Bot53,8%66,7%51,5%51,5%52,1%59,5%-55,9%55,8%55,9%
  • YHW at 2012-05-29

    OOPS, sorry, again:

    ScoresJonnyNagy FathyYHWJohn-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregornaive_child_cOneStone_cRoRoRo the Bot
    Jonny-14/1818/1814/1015/1650/4043/50
    Nagy Fathy18/14-6/127/77/1020/5025/50
    YHW18/1812/6-10/1430/2843/5047/50
    John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor10/147/714/10-6/1250/4547/50
    naive_child_c16/1510/728/3012/6-47/5046/50
    OneStone_c40/5050/2050/4345/5050/47-34/50
    RoRoRo the Bot50/4350/2550/4750/4750/4650/34-
    PerformanceJonnyNagy FathyYHWJohn-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregornaive_child_cOneStone_cRoRoRo the BotMean PerformanceAgainst (other) botsAgainst (other) humans
    Jonny-43,8%50%58,3%48,4%55,6%46,2%50,4%50,1%50,7%
    Nagy Fathy56,3%-33,3%50%41,2%28,6%33,3%40,4%34,4%46,5%
    YHW50%66,7%-41,7%51,7%46,2%48,5%50,8%48,8%52,8%
    John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor41,7%50%58,3%-33,3%52,6%48,5%47,4%44,8%50%
    naive_child_c51,6%58,8%48,3%66,7%-48,5%47,9%53,6%48,2%56,3%
    OneStone_c44,4%71,4%53,8%47,4%51,5%-40,5%51,5%46%54,3%
    RoRoRo the Bot53,8%66,7%51,5%51,5%52,1%59,5%-55,9%55,8%55,9%
  • YHW at 2012-06-09

    Update:

    Scores"Jonny""Nagy Fathy""YHW""John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor""naive_child_c""OneStone_c""RoRoRo the Bot"TOTAL SCORE DIFFERENCE
    Jonny-17/ 2324/ 2017/ 1219/ 2650/ 4043/ 50-1
    Nagy Fathy23/ 17-6/ 139/ 1014/ 1620/ 5025/ 50-57
    YHW20/ 2413/ 6-10/ 1731/ 3543/ 5047/ 50-18
    John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor12/ 1710/ 917/ 10-7/ 1650/ 4547/ 50-6
    naive_child_c26/ 1916/ 1435/ 3116/ 7-47/ 5046/ 5015
    OneStone_c40/ 5050/ 2050/ 4345/ 5050/ 47-34/ 509
    RoRoRo the Bot50/ 4350/ 2550/ 4750/ 4750/ 4650/ 34-58
    Performance"Jonny""Nagy Fathy""YHW""John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor""naive_child_c""OneStone_c""RoRoRo the Bot"Mean PerformanceAgainst all (other) botsAgainst all (other) human
    Jonny-42,5%54,5%58,6%42,2%55,6%46,2%49,9%48%51,9%
    Nagy Fathy57,5%-31,6%52,6%46,7%28,6%33,3%41,7%36,2%47,2%
    YHW45,5%68,4%-37%47%46,2%48,5%48,8%47,2%50,3%
    John-Marc ‘Johnny’ McGregor41,4%47,4%63%-30,4%52,6%48,5%47,2%43,8%50,6%
    naive_child_c57,8%53,3%53%69,6%-48,5%47,9%55%48,2%58,4%
    OneStone_c44,4%71,4%53,8%47,4%51,5%-40,5%51,5%46%54,3%
    RoRoRo the Bot53,8%66,7%51,5%51,5%52,1%59,5%-55,9%55,8%55,9%
  • YHW at 2012-06-09

    In the meantime OneStone_c finished five additional 50-points-matches against the child, the current standing between both bots (50-points-matches-only) is 3:3.
    Jonny was also able to win another 50-points match against RoRo (1:3 total).
    It seems so that RoRo is really the best of these players/bots, nonetheless are others able to win a 50-points-match against this bot. So, even a 50-points-match-tournament would not be able to clarify always who’s definitively the best of these players. There’s still a statistical component. It could also result in another rank order...

  • Rafael Marques at 2012-07-09

    Can someone explain me why the first BlitzStein tournament is called ‘BlitzStein V’? As kfiecio wrote in the starting post, this series of tournaments is a sort-of continuation of ‘Turbo Einstein’, but the former had SEVEN editions. Or is there a deeper meaning of ‘V’ which I don’t understand. ;-)

  • FatPhil at 2012-07-09

    It’s Roman Numerals in Hexadecimal!

  • kfiecio at 2012-07-10

    It is BlitzStein V as it starts in May, which is the 5th month. It is no more deeper than that :). I use the roman numerals for months for all series of tournoments I run. They are kind of monthly cups for no default variants. The Turbo Einstain series was to sporadic for my taste, the next edition started after the previous ended. I didnt intend to run the series in the same way, instad I set up a new tournament every month like I do for EWN Backwards capture, Minishogi and recently Chess960.

  • Rafael Marques at 2012-07-10

    Okay. I almost thought that some mathematics here have a problem with numbers. :)

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