G_r_a_m_i_a_k is now cheating in dots and boxes

Yes, games 1017893 and 1017895 seem extremely similar …

The funny ones are game 1020991, move 14 and game 1020746, move 14.

Notice how he fails to exactly copy the move, losing a sure point.

Definiitely playing mim, in 5 or 6 couples of games.

Who says cheating can't be fun! (for the onlookers, that is.)

I've pointed Rosendo towards this thread. What should we do?

It has been discussed before. No real solution (except root's intervention).

You can off course not play until the last minute (1 hour in your clock). It will eventually stretch the mim cheater into losing vacation days or be forced to play without mirroring.

Lax - I presume “now cheating at” was to reinforce the opinion that he's already been accused of cheating at reversi?

If people co-operated then they could force him to lose vacation days. For example if Rosendo just waited then gramiak would lose a vacation day first because he has less time than Rosendo. So Rosendo could just sit and wait, knowing that gramiak will time out first, assuming Rosendo hasn't used any vacation days yet.

What great fun…:-/

I haven't talked about it publicly until now, but I've sacrificed a few vacation several times against Mahmod in chess.

I hadn't talked about it, because I think it's more effective when the cheater doesn't know who will charge him days when. But now the cat's at least partly out of the bag.

Yep, I think I'm playing rosendo via him.

If I were in this situation (playing against a MITM man) I think I would just stop playing, at least temporarily, and hope that Richard noticed. Once I went so far with a man in the middle opponent here (without knowing) that I beat the guy I was unknowingly playing against (hoeksmarp); I felt very guilty after that. See

http://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/forum/topic2.jsp?forum=1&topic=1748

for that thread. I only discovered that I was playing a MITM by accident afterwards. Ever since then I have declined invitations from people I didn't know. But that was a different story—that was one person with two userids. Gramiak is much more blatant; couldn't even be bothered to set up two userids. Hopefully Richard will act…

You're saying someone actually invited you to a game so that they could use you to beat someone? That's sneaky.

Here however Gramiak's games are all tourney games.

Yes. In the link I mentioned above, you can see that I was playing player “654” in an unrated game; I was challenged out of the blue by him and didn't have many games so I took him on. It was only when looking at how Hoeksmarp (who was then called deadfly) was doing in his games that I noticed that one of them looked highly familiar… I think it was the last unrated game I ever played here. Once bitten…

I asked him why does he cheat and his answer was relax.

The i said that i can not because he is useing other poeple to beat someone and his answer was to go cry to someone else

well at least he's not living in denial :-) [unlike those reversi guys…]

> Hopefully Richard will act…

I will go next week into Vienna (G_r_a_m_i_a_k is from Vienna), it is near for me, and I will solve it face-to-face :)

ROFL Now that's some webmaster ;-)

> Hopefully Richard will act…

>

> I will go next week into Vienna (G_r_a_m_i_a_k_i_s from Vienna),

> it is near for me, and I will solve it face-to-face :)

Hi Richard, you intentions are good, but …

Vienna is large. It might take you MONTHS to find

Gramiakis - and what when during your search the

server goes down ?

You should send someone else to Vienna, for instance

Telestes or some “Third man”.

Ingo.

So there's

1. Playing MITM.

2. Using multiple userids to play against each other.

3. Using computer software.

Are there any other ways of cheating?

My understanding is that in go there is something very unsportmanlike that is sometimes tried: playing one move every 36 hours and not resigning a won game, just slowly plodding along—on a 19x19 board this can make a lost game go on for literally weeks and weeks. I think sometimes people in winning positions have just given up in such games.

Using multiple userids can be used in other ways than just playing against each other; you can play a harder-to-detect MITM that way, for example. You can no longer create 5 userids and buy your way into the 2nd round of a monthly cup now though.

One only needs 2 userids to boost ones rating (which in turn can be used to enter championships at a high level). Most people have computers both at home and at work (or probably school for the cheaters), so unfortunately this is still possible, although fortunately not as simple as it used to be. I still think the rule that denies people using the same IP-adress (even once!) rated games is more a disadvantage than an advantage, though.

1. As long as both games are at LG, MITM can in principle be detected. But not if one game is at another turn-based site.

2. If the cheater has available as many IP addresses as userids, and uses them consistently, I don't see how you could ever detect this.

3. From what I've read in the forums, use of WZebra or the like can at least be suspected, if not detected for sure, because the programs play consistently.

4. Postponing losses by playing slowly isn't cheating, or at least it doesn't bother me. Postponing losses is a losing meta-strategy, AFAIK, because of the non-linearity of the rating process (if one's goal is a high rating). I've always got a few games going at the top of the not-my-turn list where the opponent ultimately times out.

I agree that postponing losses isn't cheating. However, in GO there is another possible problem (I don't know how often it occurs): People who won't accept the score. Since the game only ends when both players agree on a score, the game can in theory last forever if they never come to agreement.

Marius - regarding same-IP games, when I play RoRoRo, my games are rated. I don't know whether that's because RoRoRo's on a white-list, or whether it's now standard policy again (perhaps with known cheaters on a blacklist - but in that case, why aren't they just banned?). Either way, I'm happy as there's nothing I like more than swearing at my own bot!

Well, if the Admin is sure that playerX is cheating with MiM technique, he can do somethign without going to Vienna: Manually lower the clock on all the PlayerX's games (not the opponents' clocks) to 24hours. And let him continue the games with a warning about next time …

Well I have a genuine holiday coming up, so I can starve him of a move for the next couple of weeks at no true cost to myself.

Looks like Gramiak really likes diego44's style of play…

[Event “Tournament dots.mc.2009.mar.1.21”]

[Yellow “G_r_a_m_i_a_k”]

[Red “Evan Daniel”]

;b[hed];r[vcd];b[hdd];r[hdc];b[vbc];r[vbd];b[hbd];r[hce]

[Yellow “diego44”]

[Red “G_r_a_m_i_a_k”]

;b[hed];r[vcd];b[hdd];r[hdc];b[vbc];r[vbd];b[hbd];r[hce]

[Event “Tournament dots.mc.2009.mar.1.18”]

[Yellow “diego44”]

[Red “G_r_a_m_i_a_k”]

;b[hec];r[vec];b[vee];r[hed];b[vdc];r[hdb];b[vcc];r[hda];b[vca];r[vbc];b[vbb];r[hfa];b[hde];r[hdd];b[hbc];r[vcd];b[vcf];r[vbe];b[had];r[vac];b[hbe];r[vae]

[Yellow “G_r_a_m_i_a_k”]

[Red “aldiris”]

;b[hec];r[vec];b[vee];r[hed];b[vdc];r[hdb];b[vcc];r[hda];b[vca];r[vbc];b[vbb];r[hfa];b[hde];r[hdd];b[hbc];r[vcd];b[vcf];r[vbe];b[had];r[vac];b[hbe];r[vae]

[game;id:1021572]

[game;id:1021575]

It's not about Dots & Boxes exactly but about the same person.

Lax/Nugget multi-id MITM:

Tournament null Lax v. wccanard is Tournament dots.mc.2009.feb.2.1 diego44 v. Nugget ;b[hec];r[hbb];b[vac];r[hbc];b[vdd];r[vbb];b[vcb];r[haa];b[hba];r[vca];b[vdb];r[hfc];b[vcd];r[heb];b[vda];r[veb];b[vde];r[resign]

;b[hec];r[hbb];b[vac];r[hbc];b[vdd];r[vbb];b[vcb];r[haa];b[hba];r[vca];b[vdb];r[hfc];b[vcd];r[heb];b[vda];r[veb];b[resign]

Tournament dots.mc.2008.jul.1.25 Lax v. KIM is Tournament dots.ch.15.1.1 flipster v. Nugget

;b[hec];r[hfc];b[hfb];r[heb];b[hfd];r[hed];b[vda];r[vdc];b[hee];r[vac];b[hdd];r[hde];b[hda];r[vdb];b[hdbheavcb];r[hba];b[vbb];r[hcc];b[hbb];r[vbd];b[hac];r[hbd];b[vcf];r[r

esign]

;b[hec];r[hfc];b[hfb];r[heb];b[hfd];r[hed];b[vda];r[vdc];b[hee];r[vac];b[hdd];r[hde];b[hda];r[vdb];b[hdbheavcb];r[hba];b[vbb];r[hcc];b[hbb];r[vbd];b[hac];r[resign]

Tournament dots.mc.2008.jul.1.25 Lax v. rowan is Tournament dots.ch.15.1.1 Marius Halsor v. Nugget

;b[vcd];r[hdc];b[hcd];r[vdd];b[hed];r[hde];b[vdb];r[hce];b[hfb];r[vec];b[vbd];r[hfc];b[vee];r[vac];b[vad];r[vbc];b[heb];r[vebvaf];b[hcb];r[hca];b[vaa];r[hdd];b[vdevcf];r[v

da];b[vcehda];r[heahaa];b[hae];r[vbf];b[vba];r[vef];b[had];r[hab];b[vcb];r[vcavea];b[resign]

;b[vcd];r[hdc];b[hcd];r[vdd];b[hed];r[hde];b[vdb];r[hce];b[hfb];r[vec];b[vbd];r[hfc];b[vee];r[vac];b[vad];r[vbc];b[veb];r[hebvaf];b[hcb];r[hca];b[vaa];r[hdd];b[vdevcf];r[v

cevda];b[hda];r[heahae];b[hcc];r[vcchbchachad];b[haa];r[vab];b[hbavbf];r[hfe];b[vea];r[hfavef];b[heevdfhbb];r[habvba];b[vbbvbe];r[hbevaehbdvdc];b[hecvedhfdhdbvcbvca]

Tournament dots.rt.2008.8.16 Lax v. KIM is Tournament dots.ch.15.1.1 alkosan v. Nugget ;b[heb];r[hfb];b[vdc];r[hec];b[hfc];r[hea];b[hcb];r[vcc];b[vda];r[hdd];b[hed];r[hbd];b[vcd];r[vbc];b[vbd];r[vac];b[hee];r[vad];b[hfa];r[hce];b[vdf];r[vba];b[vbb];r[hbbhaa];b[hba];r[hcavec];b[vedvea];r[vebhcd];b[vbevcevbf];r[hbevca];b[vaf];r[vef];b[vee];r[hfdhfevab];b[habvaavae];r[haehadvcb];b[vdb];r[hdahdbhdc];b[hcchbchacvddvdehdevcf]

;b[heb];r[hfb];b[vdc];r[hec];b[hfc];r[hea];b[hcb];r[vcc];b[vda];r[hdd];b[hed];r[hbd];b[vcd];r[vbc];b[vbd];r[vac];b[hee];r[vad];b[hfa];r[hce];b[vdf];r[vba];b[vbb];r[hbbhaa];b[hba];r[hcavea];b[vebved];r[vechcd];b[vcevbehfe];r[hae];b[vae];r[hadvca];b[vee];r[vefhfdhab];b[vabvaahbe];r[vafvbfvdb];b[resign]

That is cheating in the top level of the dots and boxes championship. That's grim.

there's one thing which makes this hilarious…

look who started the thread…

Can someone please clarify this for me?

Are Lax and Nugget being accused here of cheating?

I have a number of games going with these players.

What if anything can/should I do about it?

In my opinion, Lax = nugget is an *occasional* cheater. If you have a game with one of them, look down both of their dots and boxes games lists and check all the other games you see which are still in progress and have got a similar number of moves played.

And then, if you can be bothered, check nugget's games at vying.org, another site he plays at. And if you find that in fact you're playing someone else via MiTM then tell them, and perhaps announce it here.