Arek vs shalev, gid=1819770 Hex, Havannah

24 replies. Last post: 2017-02-12

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Arek vs shalev, gid=1819770
  • Arek Kulczycki at 2017-02-09

    link to the game

    So where did I mess it up? Everybody’s welcome to show me :)

    Maybe this way was correct, but I don’t know what tricks black still can do 
    http://www.trmph.com/hex/board#13,i1i1j9e4j4d12d4e3d3i6d5h8d11e11i8j10g10f9e10i10i9d8k5g11k11i12c12i7j7k6j6f10l9k9l8k8l7k7m5l5m4l4m3l2l3k3

    It’s possible I had a losing position but I felt rather optimistic at late stages. Either way credit to shalev for a very strong play!

  • Bill LeBoeuf ★ at 2017-02-09

    This was truly an exciting game!  I could not decide for sure who was winning until the very end.  I also would love to see comment.

     

  • shalev at 2017-02-09

    Strange as it sounds, I think you messed up on your second last move, move 54. I believe 54. f4 wins for you! It might be the only winning move on move 54.

  • lazyplayer at 2017-02-09

    shalev, wow, indeed it seems you’re right :D

    the game seemed well played for me, but the ending more well played for white than black, but i could not find white win.

  • shalev at 2017-02-09

    Here’s a trmph link:

    http://www.trmph.com/hex/board#13,i1i1j9e4j4d12d4e3d3i6d5h8d11e11i8j10g10f9e10i10i9d8k5g11k11i12c12f10l9k9l8k8l7k6m5l5m4l4m3l2l3e2g2j3d7d2b3h5c8c9i4h3h4f4

    So now it’s my turn to ask where I went wrong. Probably pretty early... maybe 19. e10 is bad?

  • lazyplayer at 2017-02-09

    i think black should have played something like this

    but maybe i’m missing something?



  • lazyplayer at 2017-02-09

    basically i think both sides had to expand “weaker” side, black had to “expand” bottom, and white had to “expand” right.

  • lazyplayer at 2017-02-09

    shalev, and 19 e10 is very safe move, it can’t be bad.if anything it’s white d8 that is bad!

  • lazyplayer at 2017-02-09

    black potential “strategic” errors in my opinion are d5 and i8...

    white potential errors d8 and h5, but it’s hard for me to find better alternatives to these.

  • shalev at 2017-02-09

    I just wanted to point out that Arek’s trmph link (that lazyplayer is also using at some point) is slightly different from the actual game. This position is not equivalent to this position, because the latter allows a potential black threat at h7, like this.

  • lazyplayer at 2017-02-09

    shalev, good point... actually white i7 at some stage may be correct indeed, and surely it can make white position stronger

  • shalev at 2017-02-09

    lazyplayer, in response to your rescue attempt for black, white can play this, which seems to win

  • lazyplayer at 2017-02-09

    shalev, well, then white does this, then what? but it’s true i’ve not checked all lines, i just say, on principle, i think this should be correct way to play :P

  • lazyplayer at 2017-02-09

    shalev, can you explain me why d7? why this? i think this is either genial, or total bullshit! not sure which! :D

  • lazyplayer at 2017-02-09

    shalev, indeed my black idea is wrong, i’ve just checked. maybe black can improve.

    maybe something like this instead?

  • lazyplayer at 2017-02-09

    hmm even that doesn’t seem to work... i don’t know then, maybe i’ll look again at this issue another day...

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2017-02-09

    As shalev has pointed out – in trmph I presented the correct line which I forgot to use in the actual game. i7 was basically a free improvement on that position.

    For shalev’s error I think the most suspicious move was 17.g10. Earlier moves I cannot criticize at all, on the other hand later moves I think are more less forced. 19.e10 probably made no difference at all, but I cannot say for sure.

    Btw yes now it seems I blundered at 54. I’ve been dreadfully confused by this game’s ending and everything looked like a total mess to me. I hate losing in such way, but at least I keep confidence in my intuitive evaluation because I was very sure it should be my win.

  • lazyplayer at 2017-02-09

    Arek, i think you were simply not in mood of playing. When one is not in mood, it’s better to take “holiday” than to play blunder...

  • lazyplayer at 2017-02-09

    On the other hand, there is also the thing that we don’t really care about result...

    What’s needed is a nice prize for winning :D

  • shalev at 2017-02-09

    Lazyplayer, for d7, I discovered it mostly by desperation. Basically the d8 stone ended up being annoyingly well positioned. The natural way to attack it was with b10 or b8, but I think they seemed to lose in my calculations. d7 is sort of a weird alternative attack. It successfully disconnects the e2e3e4 cluster (see lines like this or this). I think I’m pretty happy with that move, though I don’t think it can save the game at that point.

    It did end up creating enough confusion that I was able to steal the win, I guess. I feel a bit guilty for winning by trickery... sorry Arek!

  • lazyplayer at 2017-02-10

    shalev, hehe, ok, that is not surprising....

    yes d8 seems very good, i often distrust moves like it but i guess here the distrust in this case is wrong (perhaps because white has nothing else to decently connect to left)

  • Arek Kulczycki at 2017-02-12

    I played my best and lost, so full congrats to shalev. Confusion play is just another way of good play so d7 was a very good one.

    During the game lazyplayer strongly criticized d8 for being overloaded. I think it’s ok because white don’t really use it from different angles at the same time. White only threaten to use it from either one or another angle. This should work fine.

  • lazyplayer at 2017-02-12

    Arek, i would fit d8 into my own way of thinking by saying that the most important thing was to connect your central stuff to left... it’s true that by connecting it to left, it becomes harder to connect top-left to left, but this doesn’t matter, because (with help of center) you then gain another tempo on top-right... well, something like this.

    And yeah, we discuss the games while they go, but only general principles, i absolutely don’t work out specific lines for him. If i had worked out specific play for him he wouldn’t blunder at end, hahah! shame on you for losing in this silly way! :)

  • lazyplayer at 2017-02-12

    And to be honest, i blame this blunder on LG timers...

    We’ve a ton of time available, but want to spend only limited time on hex, and we don’t want to wait months before seeing who will win at the end...

    And this is why i think serious play should be real-time (with a timer like 1 hour per player, for a 13x13 game)...

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