The Japanese rules (unlike some other variations) say that eyes in seki don't count for scoring. I don't see any way with the software on this site to make that work. So am I right that we're not really using the standard Japanese rules and the eyes in seki do count here?

Should A1 in the friendly game #49041 be counted?

It is correct that this server does not allow to count seki with eyes properly. Those situations are rare however and I am sue Richard can handle those situations by hand if necessary.

In the game mentioned by Klaashaas it does not matter. Both groups involved in the seki have one eye. The outcome of the game is unaffected by how the seki is scored.

According to japanese rules a1 should not be counted.

Thanks for the answer. I realised that it doesn't influence the outcome of the game, but until a few weeks back, I wasn't aware of that rule. I wasn't sure if the eyes-in-seki rule applied here and I just wanted to be sure.

I agree that it isn't a big deal that the system doesn't recognise it (just as long as the players do!:)

I was asked about this game http://www.littlegolem.net/jsp/game/game.jsp?gid=42269

(there is really problem with bad counting)

My proposal was “dont accept score and ask opponent to resign!”

But it could be question. Opponent could say that it is special rules of this server, that it is not obligatory…

So I propose to make some precedence and add it to FAQ under section GO.

Sure Rio could do it (change score) by hand but it is not good way I think… :-)

Isn't White the proper winner of that game? The eyes don't count, but the black stone on A4 is still dead. White could play B4 to capture it or simply claim it as a prisoner, no?

No, by Japanese rules Black wins.

White can capture A4 at B4. However he still only has two liberties so an approach at B2 is self atari.

White should get a point for the A4 prisoner (so he should capture it). However no other points. This gives white 10 and black 15-1 = 14.

Niall (BGA 1dan)

Niall's assessment is correct, except that he has forgotten the 5.5 points komi. With this, White wins by 1.5.

U are right Iam sorry I didnt analysed it properly!

I missed a4 for white!

But try to imagine if there is just one liberty and no prisoner! So difference is just half point for white!

If u check b1 stone like living (and it is!) Rio's system will count a1 like black's point!!! And it is BAD result half point for black!

…. BUT! Sorry then it will count a4 like white's point so it is still no problem! :-)

Well! I am sorry of disturbing! (but u could see some interesting seki with “unbalanced” number of eye-points on http://senseis.xmp.net/?Seki which several position will be REAL problem with scoring on Golem (for. ex: Example of a seki with and without eyes ) )

But I propose to accept GOOD PRECEDENCE! Black resigned in that game due to accept japanese rules and not counting of golem! :-)

Niall, Nick, and liso,

Does a4 actually the stone have to actually be captured in order to be considered dead? Is that some special case because it is not sitting in anyone's territory?

It looks dead on the board to me.

> Does a4 actually the stone have to actually be captured

> in order to be considered dead?

Using Japanese rules, the answer is Yes.

Instead of the case in question, with a two-point eye at a4/b4 and a black stone on a4, suppose there were a three point eye at a4/b4/c4, with black stones on a4 and b4, and the corner as it is. White can capture two stones, Black must then throw in to maintain the seki, and then White can capture a third stone. But to allow White to wait until the end of the game, and then claim two prisoners from a4/b4 and a third one which Black has not even put on the board yet, would be unreasonable.

The Japanese rule “there is no territory in a seki” is taken to imply “you can't claim prisoners in a seki, you have to actually capture them”.

(but u could see some interesting seki with “unbalanced” number of eye-points on http://senseis.xmp.net/?Seki which several position will be REAL problem with scoring on Golem (for. ex: Example of a seki with and without eyes ) )

Indeed. I posted the “Example of Seki with one Eye In Total” there myself, based on a slightly more complicated position that occured in one of the last Go 13x13 Championship games in the last cycle here. Observing that game (and wishing for a quick end, so the next cycle could start) was what prompted me to start this thread, too.