am i special? General forum

49 replies. Last post: 2004-12-06

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am i special?
  • pitirre at 2004-11-30

    my wife doesnt understand why i prefer GO over chess, also my ex-chess friends.

    i go to cafe's where chessplayers go to play and all of them ignore. they dont even ask what the hell im playing. i find that strange.

    chess for me is all about calculation and a modest sense of strategy but GO is that and more. is like a mistery that u know u never solve.

    i dont understand people. when i was a chessplayer and i notice the game of GO i was very curious and i didnt have a problem to know more about the game…but the “others” dont.

    when i go to the cafe the only persons that ask me about the game are woman or movie buffs that ask me that if the game im playing is the game from the movie “a beautiful mind”.

    GO is great but …is it great only for “special” people?

  • Greck at 2004-11-30

    for sure, you are special.

  • Tim Shih ★ at 2004-11-30

    You do have a kind heart. You yourself have tasted the sweetness of Go, and there is so much enthusiasm filled inside you. If you do not let it go, it will burst. :) So you feel eager to share such joy with others. I fully understand your kind feelings.

    But if chess players ignore you and the Go game due to whatever reasons they may base on, you simply cannot do much about it.

    Go is beneficial to you and me, but may not be the same to everybody. I know a Go friend of mine. Go was too addictive to him. He played too much and flunked out from the school. So, it is possible that, to this person, it was better for him not to have learned Go. :)

  • pitirre at 2004-11-30

    so im special? that is nice too know.

    this is my opinion; i think that goplayers that comes from the western hemisphere are “special” or something because we have seen beyond the black and white stones and the simplicity of the game (the rules i mean) to observe the beauty, the challenge and harmony of the game.

    is easy for an asian to play go because he/she have more exposure to the game of GO but to many of us that come from a part o the world that are basically ignorant of the game and then to make it part of our lives…WE HAVE TO BE SPECIAL…or something.

  • Tomoe Gozen at 2004-11-30

    People in Japan (and Asia) who play go must be special also, since the game is less popular than shogi or even Western chess.

    “A recent survey has shown that there has been a great increase in the popularity of shogi in Japan. According to a survey done in 1995 of 16-17 year olds in Japan, a whopping 70 % of all boys played shogi sometimes or often, whereas only 15% played Western chess and only 7% played go. Among girls, 61% of all Japanese girls owned a shogi set. Shogi is by far the most popular board strategy game in Japan. What this means is that, if you want to get a Japanese girl, you gotta learn how to play shogi.”

    Source: http://www.ishipress.com/shogi.htm

  • Tomoe Gozen at 2004-11-30

    It may also be worthwhile to mention that, one hundred years ago, people in the West were more exposed to the game of go than people in Japan, where the common people were forbidden to play or touch it!

  • Nick Wedd at 2004-11-30

    That seems improbable. When do you believe it was forbidden? Ordinary (non-samurai) people were allowed to play Go before the Meiji restoration.

  • Tim Shih ★ at 2004-11-30

    Karla was partially correct. There was a period of time when Go was banned, along with gambling, in Japan. But that happened around 7th or 8th century. :) Then, the emperor was fond of Go himself, so he lifted the ban. Since then, I do not believe that there has been a single second Go was banned in Japan.

  • Tomoe Gozen at 2004-11-30

    As a reference I offer: Erwin Glonnegger, Das Spiele-Buch, 1989, 1989, Ravensburger Buchverlag, where it is asserted that go “remained taboo for the common people, i.e. it was prohibited. It was reserved to the higher classes - samurai, aristocrats and clerics.” (my translatiion).

    See also:

    http://www.columbus-box.at/deutsch/html/go/higo.htm

    “Go - ein Privileg der oberen Klassen

    Zur Zeit von Kibi no Mabi (im achten Jahrhundert nach Christus) erfreute sich das Go-Spiel einer immer größer werdenden Beliebtheit. Trotzdem wurde dem gemeinen Volk das Spiel verboten. Nur die Samurai, die Aristokraten und die buddhistischen Priester durften sich dieses Brettspieles erfreuen. Alte Dokumente berichten vom unvergleichlichen Leben am kaiserlichen Hof und den dort ausgetragenen Go-Turnieren (z. B. bei Kaiser Seiwa).

    […]

    Die Beschränkung des Zugangs zum Spiel auf die höheren, elitären Schichten hat sich bis zum 19. Jahrhundert erhalten. Dies scheint auch der Grund für den besonderen Ruf zu sein, den Go heute noch in Japan genießt.”

    Translation of last paragraph: “The restriction of access to the game to these higher elitist classes continued until the nineteenth century. This also seems to be the cause of the special repute that go still has in today's Japan.”

    The Meiji restoration abolished subsidizing of the four go schools (“houses”), which almost led to the complete extinction of go in Japan, and certainly not to its popularisation. From this I surmise that go became popular (“of the people”) in Japan less than 100 years ago. In China it became popular later still.

    As an aside, the all-time most popular online game in China is called “The Legend of Mir II”, with 100,000's of simultaneous online players. Other hugely popular games include King of Kings, SG (The Three Kingdoms) Online, and Xiao Ao Jiang Hu's Jing Zhong Bao Guo. Source: China today.

  • Tim Shih ★ at 2004-12-01

    Yes, you may be correct about the fact that Meiji government stopped the subsidies to the four Go schools. And also the popularity of Go might have encountered a halt.

    But let us not equate this policy to your original rather severe statement “common people were forbidden to play or touch it”. :)

  • lapieuvre at 2004-12-01

    I think I prefer to play go than chess partly because I can take or give a handicap. And also because I'm not trained enough at chess to think in term of shapes or global strategy. But when I'm lucky enough to hear a good chess player positionnal analysis, I realize we just don't play the same game.

    Thus, I wouldn't dare to compare :-)

  • pitirre at 2004-12-01

    global strategy in chess?

    shapes in chess?

    ???????????????????????????

  • lapieuvre at 2004-12-01

    Obviously, without global strategy, best human chess players would be no match for the weakest computers. Ok, go programs are comparatively much weaker than chess programs, but this is mainly due to a much highest number of possible moves in go than in chess.

    I think a go beginner feels immediatly lost whereas a chess beginner may wrongly think he has some control on the game just because he calculates a lot.

  • David Milne at 2004-12-01

    shapes in chess!

    Pawn formations… aren't they shapes :-)

  • Greck at 2004-12-02

    pitirre, I don't know if you are a good chess player or not. But if you don't think in terms of global strategy and shapes, I don't think you arrive too far.

    Of course, the goal in chess is more “lineal” than in go. I mean, _kill the king_. But the subgoals in chess are deep and global. And, of course, patterns and shapes play a fundamental róle.

    my two cents about chess :-)

  • pitirre at 2004-12-02

    gregorio, you are right…is about 2 cents your opinion.

    of course that in chess we can see “shapes”, like everything else in this world we can see “shapes” …BUT… the mind doesnt solve problems or function the same way with ALL things.

    when a chess player direct his/her analysis to a position he or she doesnt do the same with a go board position. the brain doesnt work that way.

    chess is strictly calculation (with a modest sense of strategy) and a player (intrisically) thinks in that way; their predetermined moves and their consequences.

    gregorio, i think your problem is that you are just trying too hard to “get to me”. get a life…and work in your game.

  • ypercube at 2004-12-02

    pitirre thinks that chess is strictly calculation (with a modest sense of strategy) while go is strictly strategy (with a modest sense of calculation).

    Gregorio on the other hand thinks that there is a lot of strategy at chess - at least the very good (master and grandmaster) players can “see” it. I totally agree that they can while I am rather poor at positional analysis. That is why I am not a very good player of chess.

    Perhaps pitirre is right that Go players have to develop - and do develop - positional (strategic) thinking earlier in the game than chess players. Does this makes Chess better than Go? Not in my opinion.

    All games are interesting in some aspect. Go may be at one thing, chess at another, dots-and-boxes at something else. And I have seen chess players that really show interest at Go when they encounter it for the 1st time. Are you sure your ex-chess friends are showing disinterest at the game or your offensive behaviour?

  • pitirre at 2004-12-02

    yper, can u show me WHERE did i write that GO has little calculation?

    and yes, GO is better than chess and is not my opinion only but for a lot of cognoscitve experts.

    im not here to make a conflict…im only saying things as they are. an objective view.

    and by the way, there is a diference in “taste” or preference in a game to the superiority of a game because of the multiple benefits to the brain.

  • Greck at 2004-12-02

    pitirre, it's a pitty you thought my opinion was about you, not about the games themselves.

    Anyway, and returning to the topic:

    Any game makes special to the people playing it. And I'm pretty sure everygame has it's own benefits to brain, social attitudes, social aptitudes, and so on.

    I'm fond of games; abstract, thematic, german games and every other kind. I used to play a lot of different games when I had the luck to get a player to play with.

    But I must confess that Go catched me in the moment I learnt the game. Man, I love this game. However I see it's only a matter of feelings inside, or maybe that Go is filling in the gaps in MY social aptitudes (or whatever), or my thinking skills. Or in the opposite: my thinking skills are more adapted to this game…

    Please note that the subject on phrases was me, not the game itself. When talking about games, I'm talking about me. That's why I play them.

    2 more cents, and I'm getting richer!

  • Tim at 2004-12-02

    Gregorio, I perfectly agree with you. In my opinion, playing games is about finding out more about yourself (or your brain structure, if you prefer modern terms). If you put it that way, games are quite similar to human activities such as listening to music or creating art.

    I'm a TwixT player, for example. In my (very personal) opinion, TwixT is one of the most elegant board games. But I certainly wouldn't expect anybody to subscribe to my view, as it most probably tells more about me (my brain structure) than it tells about TwixT.

    Having that in mind, I don't think that it makes much sense to compare games in terms of superiority (or whatever you call it). One of the most important lessons I've drawn from playing games is humbleness, because there's always a better player. Maybe this attitude wouldn't be a bad start if we discuss differences between games, too …

  • FC Schalke 05 at 2004-12-02

    Tim,

    completely agreeing Your point I want to add something from a well known behavior therapist A.LAZARUS. He wrote about attitudes towards people. An important problem in many therapies is the believe in different values of people. Many (wo-)men are so brain washed they believe of themselves as beeing of minor value than other people. He gives the advice to ask, if the president of a state is of higher value than a citizen, the boss is of higher value than the clerk, the mother than the child …. People are different, have different skills and abilities. But this doesn't make them more or less valuable.

    Maybe games are a way to teach this. :)

  • Greck at 2004-12-02

    Tim, I used terms like brain or social stuff because it was the direction of former posts about the topic.

    I still prefer talking about “me” rather than “my brain”, or talking about my friends, rather than “my social neighbourhood”, heh.

    :-) just to clarify!

  • pitirre at 2004-12-02

    personality differ from one person to the other. some people are determined to like things that other will disagree…but when u take all the passion or feelings or subjectives attitudes from, for example GO or chess, what we got is the many cognoscitive benefits that go has over chess.

    what u are explaining is your subjective point of a view for a game and that i can understand but what im trying to dicuss now (far away from the topic) is the essential aspects from this game…and GO is superior.

    if u have “feelings” for a particular game, good for you!!! but intelectually it can be another story.

    and gregorio, calm down. is not good for your health.

  • lapieuvre at 2004-12-02

    Definitly you are special :-)))

  • pitirre at 2004-12-02

    ;0)

  • Greck at 2004-12-03

    At least, all of us agree with it. That can't be bad!

  • Attabeira at 2004-12-03

    Beyond being merely a game, to enthusiasts Go can take on other meanings: of a nature analogous with life, an intense meditation, a mirror of one's personality, an exercise in abstract reasoning, or, when played well, a beautiful art in which Black and White dance across the board in delicate balance. When playing go resentments must clear away and thoughts become like the moon arising at night . . .They are in the ocean of endless births and deaths, and the go stones are like the numberless grains of sand upon the beach. The pieces of the two sides are yellow and black; this difference signifies the Life and the Death – scattered in groups all over the board, they represent the heavenly bodies. The star points are the nine lights of heaven and the 360 three hundred and sixty intersections are the numbers of the days of the [lunar] year. The number one is supreme and gives rise to the other numbers because it occupies the ultimate position and governs the four quarters. represents the number of days in the [lunar] year. The board has to be square, for it signifies the Earth, and its right angles signify uprightness. Go board into four quarters symbolizes the four seasons.. . . [it is] something unearthly . . .Before our eyes the boundaries of life and death become visible, the pattern of Nirvana itself. The white and black of the pieces are the colors of day and night. The division of the If there are sentient beings on other planets, then they play Go. Even though they struggle, their hearts remain gentle . . . I n the game their hands reveal benevolence. The mantra Aum reverberates in the sound of the pieces striking the board. Following what the rules permit, both opponents are subject to them – this is the rigor of the Spririt Caracter. The feeling of commiseration is the principle of benevolence (jen). Furthermore, to consider one's move expresses modesty; suggests the strategy of the opponent merits consideration. The board is a mirror of the mind of the players as the moments pass. These significances being manifest, it is up to the players to make the moves, and this is connected with kingship. The feeling of shame (for one's own want of goodness) is the principle of righteousness (i). The feeling of modesty and complaisance is the principle of propriety (li). The feeling of approving and disapproving is the principle of knowledge (chih). Go is a gentleman's exercise for the cultivation of the mind. Without employing our minds in thinking about our moves we are offending against one of the four ethical principles as set forth by Mencius. Those interested in impressing others with their intelligence play chess. Those who would settle for being chic play backgammon. Those who wish to become individuals of quality, take up Go. At least, all of us agree with it!! Or that… can't be bad?

  • Tomoe Gozen at 2004-12-04

    If there were sentient beings on other **continents**, would they also have invented go?

  • Tim Shih ★ at 2004-12-04

    To Yalkanna, if you are not already a dan player in Go, you are definitely a dan player in philosophy!! thanks for sharing. After reading it, how can anybody possibly NOT become interested in Go? :)

    To Karla, hmmm, you do not actually believe that Go and pyramids were invented/built by earthlings, do you? :)

  • Tasmanian Devil at 2004-12-04

    Do the aliens prefer Japanese or Chinese (or other) rules?

  • Tomoe Gozen at 2004-12-04

    To Tim Shih: No, I actually believe that suggesting that go is played by aliens is extremely stupid and an insult to Africans, Europeans, native Americans, …, who did not invent go and are still sentient beings! And it does not matter who (Emmanuel Lasker) said it.

    Also my neighbour is a sentient being and does not play go.

    The hotchpotch of other quotes by Iwamoto Kaoro, Chang Nui, Pan Ku, Terry Benson,…, is not philosophy imho.

  • Tomoe Gozen at 2004-12-04

    And the lunar year is not 360 (or 361) days but 354 days, 8 hours, 48 minutes, and 34.38 seconds.

  • Jupp at 2004-12-04

    Hallo Karla,

    Deinen Namen mag ich sehr. Das nur am Rande.

    Die Diskussion hier - von der Tendenz her gefällt mir was Du sagst. Aber ist es nicht sinnlos Gläubigen (ob Go oder Esoterik) mit Fakten zu kommen? Es ist ein Weg den einige gehen müssen. Deiner ist ein anderer. :)

  • Tomoe Gozen at 2004-12-04

    Danke Jupp, Sie haben voellig Recht. Nur bin ich nicht deutschsprachig, kundig aber schon.

  • Attabeira at 2004-12-06

    Clarity of vision, in turn, has two aspects; in G0 19x19 Game Board the first is awarenes, which is related to a specific event, stone or stones withing that field. Awarenes is the foundation of efective G0-Combat-Readiness. Second The Principle of Spherity, which is related to the mental atitude strongly centralized in horizontal circuits of Neutralization. Both of theses principles; that of centralization and that of extension-imply the idea of Go or circularity in operation.

  • Attabeira at 2004-12-06

    Clarity of vision, in turn, has two aspects; in G0 19x19 Game Board the first is awarenes, which is related to a specific event, stone or stones withing that field. Awarenes is the foundation of efective G0-Combat-Readiness. Second The Principle of Spherity, which is related to the mental atitude strongly centralized in horizontal circuits of Neutralization. Both of theses principles; that of centralization and that of extension-imply the idea of Go or circularity in operation.

  • Tim at 2004-12-06

    It would be interesting to have the brains of players FMRI scanned while they are playing Go, Chess, or any other game. FMRI is a technique for determining which parts of the brain are activated. If you want to prove that a certain game is special, you could do it by showing that the underlying brain activities are distinctive. I've never heard about anybody examining games this way, but I think it should be very easy to show that Monopoly is different from Go, for instance. Pinpointing the difference between Go and Chess might be (far) more difficult …

  • Attabeira at 2004-12-06

    Entschuldigen Sie, Paar Perlon Strümpfe, Ist dies der Weg [zum Eingang}>zum Ausgang? Was kostet der Eintritt? Muss ich über die Brückle gehen, deutschsprachig, verstehen Sie mich? Kann ich die Fahrt in Go-einen Fahrplan unterbrechen?

    Auf Wiedersehen

    Adios Amiguita@.(.¿.)!!

  • Abigail at 2004-12-06

    > i go to cafe's where chessplayers go to play and all of them ignore.

    > they dont even ask what the hell im playing. i find that strange.

    So, you go to cafes where people play a particular game, you play something else, and you find it strange people ignore you? I don't find it strange. Perhaps if you brought a game noone has seen before you might be surprised if noone asked you what it is, but in my experience, most chess players know a go board if they see one. The chess players there ignore you because 1) they know what the game is you brought with you, and 2) they are there to play chess, not go.

  • pitirre at 2004-12-06

    where else i can go?

    my logic tells me that a chessplayer who loves the game might have curiosity of other game boards…like i do. thats's how i learn about GO.

    i dont mind playing at the internet but i miss playing over the board with someone…so if i want to do that i have to go out where it can be more seen by those who are interested in board games.

    the thing is that chessplayers are very naive and think that there is NO OTHER game greater than theirs.

    but im patience…and i can wait.

  • pitirre at 2004-12-06

    i even remember the first time i went with my go-set and ask if someone play GO, they didnt know what the hell i was talking about and worse!!! they told me i couldnt play there because it was “reserved” for them.

    yeah, sure!!!

    i sat down and started to study some joseki.

    only 2 or 3 chessplayers whom i knew from my chess days asked me what was that. only an argentinian sat down and move some stones but then he told me he couldnt see the shapes and where to put the stones in the large board. he is a very mature guy and i understood the resistence to know a new game…but there is a lot of young guys and is very strange how they resist and only make stupid remarks like; “where is the king?” or “checkmate i 7!”

    i am very patience and when i see that kind of conduct i only tell to visit some websites of GO or explain what the game is about.

    is funny, the only time i can see that the chessplayers are intrigued is when i tell them of joseki or fusekI. I can notice how they are “amazed” that it can exist other games that they dont know about with openings systems and theory.

    like i said…very naive.

  • Abigail at 2004-12-06

    What's it with so many go people - why do they always have the tendency to compare their game with chess? It's like Python or PHP people, who always have to compare their language with Perl. So you think go is the best thing since sliced bread. Big deal - other people think differently. I play chess (used to play a lot more than I do now), and a lot of other (board) games as well. I've tried go, but I don't find it interesting. And there will be millions of other people who don't find go interesting either. Just like there are millions of people who don't like chess. Or games in general. Big deal.

    What I find pretty naive is go to a place people play chess with a different game, and be surprised people don't cast away their chess sets and start playing your game.

    Personally, I find bridge a far more interesting game than either chess or go, but if I walk into a go cafe with a deck of cards, I wouldn't expect people to abandon their games to play with me.

  • pitirre at 2004-12-06

    so i should shut myself with my GO-set and only play at the internet?

    why we find GO “the best”?….mmmmmmm…because IT IS!

    and we just want the world to join to the happiness.

    we are like the jehova's witness…preaching to the world.

    join in!!!

    save yourself!!!!

  • pitirre at 2004-12-06

    and by the way, i think i have been clear about “preferences” but what i brought to discussion is the cognoscitives benefits of GO and the unique personality of the GOplayer.

    we are so special!

  • Abigail at 2004-12-06

    > so i should shut myself with my GO-set and only play at the internet?

    Did I say that? Did I even suggest that you shouldn't bring your go set to a place where chess people meet? No. I just think you should stop whining when people who happen to love a different game don't instantly fall in love with your game of choice.

    The only thing “special” about you - which sets you apart from chess players - is your whining.

  • Tasmanian Devil at 2004-12-06

    pitirre, what is the population in your home town? It is always difficult to recruit new people to an abstract board game. Even though the Chess club may be the most natural “hunting ground”, there will usually be rather few “all-rounders” who are interested in other games. Maybe Chess players are relatively arrogant about their game, but I think the tendency is the same for other games.

    Even though Go is great, it is difficult to convince new players of this “fact”. I knew the rules for many years without having any interest in it.

  • pitirre at 2004-12-06

    i live in san juan and counting the rest of the metropolitan area i think it must be like 1.5 million of residents.

    i have no choice but to go where many people are and it is exactly where the chess players go.

  • xed_over at 2004-12-06

    Does San Juan have an Asian community? Chinatown? If so, you may find some Go players there.

    Or try the Universities. You may find some student groups that might be interested. You could setup a booth and teach passers-by.

  • pitirre at 2004-12-06

    dennis, there is no “chinatown”. the asian community doesnt live “apart” but among us and the last census reported that they were like 5, ooo living in puerto rico. not many.

    hahahahahhah…that remind me when i started playing GO everytime i saw an asian (streets, cafe, malls, university etc…) i asked them if thet play GO…hahahhaahhah…i stopped doing that because my wife got mad with me…hahahhah

    i tried everything and i dont have time to go to the university. i have saturdays to do that and i used it (when i can) to go to the cafe…more people there.

    and all my ex-chess friends didnt care for me much when i betrayed them with GO…hahahahha…this is true…hahhaha

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